Wrench in the Gears

[Starcrystal]

Instead of arguing about whether the earth and stars were created just 6000 - 7000 years ago or billions of years ago, why can't we look at what I mentioned about 12 years ago that God created all in a short time, out of time... and also in a long time...???
If we look at quantum theories both are possible! God is awesome! Physics has looked into time loops, quantum entanglement (which means 2 apparently opposed particles can exist in the same frame as one, basically), time warps, folded space, and things we cannot even comprehend!
Why do we question God on this topic? Why must we insist it is either or linear time as 6000 years or evolutionary time in billions.... after all God seemed to jam dinosaurs in Job, how did he do that?
We live in a world now dictated by linear time and human made clocks....loosely based on astronomical observations..how does anyone know what really was going on in time even 2000 years ago..
How can prophets observe the future? How can we have dreams of the future and the past?
How come scientific minds not figure out if something is 4,000 years old or 40,000, or 4 million?
We should rather leave these questions to God and realize God can do whatever he wants with time, space, and the creation.....

 

[Razare]

I used to think this way. It's great to remain hopeful of possibilities on how scripture can be true.

Me personally, I just eventually concluded it was true as is, without need of modification. The problem with me was, I didn't bother to understand what it said in the first place.

Science in the Bible is sort of light reading. It's not highly outlined, there are some things in Job, some things in Solomon's writings and in Genesis, but other than that it wasn't meant to detail all the fundamentals of natural law. It is not the subject matter of the book.

We find some highly profound scientific references, but they are fringes to the subject matter. The guy who discovered jet streams and ocean currents discovered them by reading the Bible and then going looking for them. Furthermore, you have statements like "God stretching the heavens" which is what we observe in astronomy. And there are others, like a circular Earth... which people have mis-interpreted to mean flat, but the word "circle" does not have any disposition toward 2D or 3D. If I say the "ball is round", round works just as well with "the 2D circle is round". So too, the Bible illustrates the circular nature of Earth, without a disposition toward 2D or 3D, but if you listen to all the naysayers on this, they quote historical references who were ignorant of what the Bible meant.

There is what the Bible says, and what we believe it says. These two oppose unless God gives us revelation and we are humble.

I used to do this a great, deal though, look at the world and then try to backward apply it to the word. It's backward, though, but you have to get your faith built up to realize this. What we do is go to the word and apply it to the world. Where there is disagreement on that, you quadruple check your interpretation, referencing other verses (difficult with science because it's not a core theme.) Then sometimes you too then have to shrug and stop trying to interpret.

It's fine to remain ignorant on a point. Science void of theology, can't determine epistemological truth reliably would be one of the main reasons you would do this... among others, such as building up trust over the years on how God's word is true.

You might like John Lennox:

 

[Papias]

How come scientific minds not figure out if something is 4,000 years old or 40,000, or 4 million?
..

Because God's other words - in His creation itself, are still God's word. Thus, when the evidence is clear that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, that's part of God's truth too, and denying it is just as much denying God as denying his other word (scripture).

like a circular Earth... which people have mis-interpreted to mean flat, but the word "circle" does not have any disposition toward 2D or 3D. If I say the "ball is round", round works just as well with "the 2D circle is round". So too, the Bible illustrates the circular nature of Earth, without a disposition toward 2D or 3D

Not in Hebrew. In Hebrew, there is a word for "flat disk or circle" ("chuwg") and a different word for "sphere/ball" ("dur"). The word "chuwg" in Isa 40:22, means "flat disk", not “sphere”. The Hebrews word for "sphere" ("dur") is not used. The writer would have used "dur" if he meant "sphere". This is clear in many other places in the Bibles where the world "dur" is used. From a Christian standpoint, this is a good thing, because if Is 40 did read "dur" instead of "chuwg", then it would contradict all those other equally clear references to the earth as a flat disk.

Here are some of the other verses that make it clear that a flat earth, under a hard dome, with the sun inside the dome, is what is meant:

Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear.

Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism.


We live in a Planetarium-

The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12 estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. (ibid)

These all show that God speaks on the listener's level. People then saw the world this way, so God spoke to them in terms they'd understand. That's a good thing. But it does mean that denying reality - such as a spherical earth, a distant sun, the 4.6 billion year old age of the earth, etc - is misusing our Holy scriptures.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[pat34lee]

Because God's other words - in His creation itself, are still God's word. Thus, when the evidence is clear that the earth is 4.6 billion years old,

The problem is that there is no evidence of age. There are
only facts. The universe is as old as it is, and only those who
expect it to be old see an old universe.