Wow!!!

[Carey]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif] [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Lets pray we get Netanyahu back[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]At the opening of the Knesset Winter Session, Likud Chairman Binyamin Netanyahu lashed out at the government's policy, claiming that its strategy would eventually lead to an Iranian terrorist presence in Jerusalem and the rest of Israel.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"The unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon created an Iranian outpost - from which Israel is being attacked - in the North, and the unilateral pullout from Gaza created a second Iranian base in Gaza, 'Hamastan,'" Netanyahu said. "And now the government is planning a third withdrawal - from Judea and Samaria - that will lead to a third Iranian outpost."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Netanyahu quoted statements made by Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert before the withdrawals from Lebanon and Gaza, respectively, saying the two had promised security, while Israel was in actuality served with aggression and terror.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"Giving Hamas half of Jerusalem will make the rest of Jerusalem unlivable," Netanyahu said. "Giving up Judea and Samaria will transfer the areas controlling the coastal plain into the hands of Hamas, leading to Kassams...on Tel Aviv."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"According to the government's plans, Israel will pull back to the 67' borders. Obviously, this is the plan and any attempts to disguise it are futile," he said. "We are facing an exact replica of the government's plan at the Camp David summit in 2000."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"This is no way to make peace," the former prime minister lamented. [/FONT][/FONT]

http://us.f500.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Sh...=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox

 

[gwynedd1]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif] [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Lets pray we get Netanyahu back[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]At the opening of the Knesset Winter Session, Likud Chairman Binyamin Netanyahu lashed out at the government's policy, claiming that its strategy would eventually lead to an Iranian terrorist presence in Jerusalem and the rest of Israel.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"The unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon created an Iranian outpost - from which Israel is being attacked - in the North, and the unilateral pullout from Gaza created a second Iranian base in Gaza, 'Hamastan,'" Netanyahu said. "And now the government is planning a third withdrawal - from Judea and Samaria - that will lead to a third Iranian outpost."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]Netanyahu quoted statements made by Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert before the withdrawals from Lebanon and Gaza, respectively, saying the two had promised security, while Israel was in actuality served with aggression and terror.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"Giving Hamas half of Jerusalem will make the rest of Jerusalem unlivable," Netanyahu said. "Giving up Judea and Samaria will transfer the areas controlling the coastal plain into the hands of Hamas, leading to Kassams...on Tel Aviv."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"According to the government's plans, Israel will pull back to the 67' borders. Obviously, this is the plan and any attempts to disguise it are futile," he said. "We are facing an exact replica of the government's plan at the Camp David summit in 2000."[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, Serif]"This is no way to make peace," the former prime minister lamented.[/FONT][/FONT]

http://us.f500.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Sh...=down&sort=date&pos=0&view=a&head=b&box=Inbox

Where have I seen this before? Its a different take on Maimonides commentary perhaps? It sound more like ...

The Accessions

8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
[8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
[8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Now what does Roman's say?

Romans 12

[18] If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.
[19] Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
[20] No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head."
[21] Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Carey]

Where have I seen this before? Its a different take on Maimonides commentary perhaps? It sound more like ...

The Accessions







Now what does Roman's say?

Romans 12

Even what you posted says ( IF POSSIBLE ) live in peace. Some times your enemies will not let you.

Romans 12 : [18] If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.

Romans 12 you referred to was talking to Christian individuals not Rulers of a country with a military that all countries must have if they have anything other countries would forcibly take.

We should pray for our leaders to find a way to peace but sometimes the enemy must be fought to bring peace.

Ecclesiastes 3 : 8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace



God trains our leaders for war sometimes like he did David

Pslams 18 : 34 He trains my hands for battle;
my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

Some of us are destined to be soldiers too.

Job 27: 7 "May my enemies be like the wicked,
my adversaries like the unjust!
8 For what hope has the godless when he is cut off,
when God takes away his life?
11 "I will teach you about the power of God;
the ways of the Almighty I will not conceal.

12 You have all seen this yourselves.
Why then this meaningless talk?
13 "Here is the fate God allots to the wicked,
the heritage a ruthless man receives from the Almighty: 14 However many his children, their fate is the sword;


1 Timothy 2

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness

And even God himself will war against the enemies of his people too.

Psalms 21: 1 O LORD, the king rejoices in your strength.
How great is his joy in the victories you give
5 Through the victories you gave, his glory is great;
you have bestowed on him splendor and majesty.
7 For the king trusts in the LORD;
through the unfailing love of the Most High
he will not be shaken.

8 Your hand will lay hold on all your enemies;
your right hand will seize your foes.
9 At the time of your appearing
you will make them like a fiery furnace.
In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up,
and his fire will consume them.
10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
their posterity from mankind.
11 Though they plot evil against you
and devise wicked schemes, they cannot succeed;
12 for you will make them turn their backs
when you aim at them with drawn bow. 13 Be exalted, O LORD, in your strength;
we will sing and praise your might.

But the GOOD NEWS is War will only be NECSSARY until Christ returns and FIGHTS the LAST War.

Matthew 24 : 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

 

[gwynedd1]

Even what you posted says ( IF POSSIBLE ) live in peace. Some times your enemies will not let you.

Romans 12 : [18] If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.

Romans 12 you referred to was talking to Christian individuals not Rulers of a country with a military that all countries must have if they have anything other countries would forcibly take.

We should pray for our leaders to find a way to peace but sometimes the enemy must be fought to bring peace.

Ecclesiastes 3 : 8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace



God trains our leaders for war sometimes like he did David

Pslams 18 : 34 He trains my hands for battle;
my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

Some of us are destined to be soldiers too.

Job 27: 7 "May my enemies be like the wicked,
my adversaries like the unjust!
8 For what hope has the godless when he is cut off,
when God takes away his life?
11 "I will teach you about the power of God;
the ways of the Almighty I will not conceal.

12 You have all seen this yourselves.
Why then this meaningless talk?
13 "Here is the fate God allots to the wicked,
the heritage a ruthless man receives from the Almighty: 14 However many his children, their fate is the sword;


1 Timothy 2

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness

And even God himself will war against the enemies of his people too.

Psalms 21: 1 O LORD, the king rejoices in your strength.
How great is his joy in the victories you give
5 Through the victories you gave, his glory is great;
you have bestowed on him splendor and majesty.
7 For the king trusts in the LORD;
through the unfailing love of the Most High
he will not be shaken.

8 Your hand will lay hold on all your enemies;
your right hand will seize your foes.
9 At the time of your appearing
you will make them like a fiery furnace.
In his wrath the LORD will swallow them up,
and his fire will consume them.
10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
their posterity from mankind.
11 Though they plot evil against you
and devise wicked schemes, they cannot succeed;
12 for you will make them turn their backs
when you aim at them with drawn bow. 13 Be exalted, O LORD, in your strength;
we will sing and praise your might.

But the GOOD NEWS is War will only be NECSSARY until Christ returns and FIGHTS the LAST War.

Matthew 24 : 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Hello Carey,

Again the NT scriptures are clear that God will do the fighting. I think it was very possible to avoid fighting Lebanon. Judaism has a concept of an obligatory war in the case of self defense as well as a controversial optional war for glory under "rigorous"
circumstances. I see no argument at all that Lebanon was self defense and Paul is clear on " if at all possible" so support of war is folly especially in this case. As I have said before, far worse happens on our Mexican border.
Christians should be the most peaceful people on Earth.

 

[Carey]

Hello Carey,

Again the NT scriptures are clear that God will do the fighting. I think it was very possible to avoid fighting Lebanon. Judaism has a concept of an obligatory war in the case of self defense as well as a controversial optional war for glory under "rigorous"
circumstances. I see no argument at all that Lebanon was self defense and Paul is clear on " if at all possible" so support of war is folly especially in this case. As I have said before, far worse happens on our Mexican border.
Christians should be the most peaceful people on Earth.

I agree Christians should try to be peaceful.
But sometimes the only way to peace is the
destruction of your enemies who only want
war with you.


Well if God wanted Christians to never fight even in self defense then why would he say ..

Romans 12 : 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I agree Christians should try to be peaceful.
But sometimes the only way to peace is the
destruction of your enemies who only want
war with you.


Well if God wanted Christians to never fight even in self defense then why would he say ..

Romans 12 : 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

God did not say that. Paul did.

And the path to peace is not one of destruction and war. If it was, then the designs would contradict the means.

 

[Carey]

God did not say that. Paul did.

And the path to peace is not one of destruction and war. If it was, then the designs would contradict the means.

God divinely said everything in the Bible through men like Paul.

But without Jesus war is necessary . Mans way is not the way to peace but if Non Muslims want to survive they will have to war against Muslims.

Muslims will not allow peace to be possible. This is why
The scriptures say in Romans 12 :
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Because peace with Islam depends on Islam not Christians Islam will make war necessary because the Quran says
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)


Jesus did say this.

Matthew 24 : 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God divinely said everything in the Bible through men like Paul.

But without Jesus war is necessary . Mans way is not the way to peace but if Non Muslims want to survive they will have to war against Muslims.

Muslims will not allow peace to be possible. This is why
The scriptures say in Romans 12 :
18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Because peace with Islam depends on Islam not Christians Islam will make war necessary because the Quran says
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)


Jesus did say this.

Matthew 24 : 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Paul wrote his letters to these groups to address their particular needs with advice. His message was inspired by Christ, but Paul is still human and can be prone to error.

As for the Qu'ran quote. That is taken from a superficial and literal reading of the verse. Not all Islamic scholars hold that those verses should be read in such a way.

 

[Carey]

Paul wrote his letters to these groups to address their particular needs with advice. His message was inspired by Christ, but Paul is still human and can be prone to error.

As for the Qu'ran quote. That is taken from a superficial and literal reading of the verse. Not all Islamic scholars hold that those verses should be read in such a way.

There are nop errors in the Bible.
The creator made sure exactly what he wanted went into the Bible and what he did not want did not.

Other wise Christ would not have said what he did in the verse I put in my last post. Christ was not prone to error was he??

 

[Archaeopteryx]

But the Creator did not compile or write the Bible. Men did.

 

[Carey]

But the Creator did not compile or write the Bible. Men did.

But he had 100% control of who and how they compiled and wrote it just like he has 100% control of the weather.

Jeremiah 34 : 2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Go to Zedekiah king of Judah and tell him, 'This is what the LORD says: I am about to hand this city over to the king of Babylon, and he will burn it down

Exodus 9 : ." 23 When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt;
Mark 4 : 39He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

 

[bunced]

but if Non Muslims want to survive they will have to war against Muslims.

Rubbish. Non Muslims and Muslims live perfectly well together all over the world, including in my local big town which has a 30% Muslim population. There is no problem there, or in the vast majority of everywhere else.

There is plenty of scope for a Critique of Islam without resorting to making stuff up, especially not when you are using what you have said as a justification for war which has the potential to kill hundreds of people - I would have hope that as Christians we would be more cautious than to make such damaging generalisations

 

[Carey]

Rubbish. Non Muslims and Muslims live perfectly well together all over the world, including in my local big town which has a 30% Muslim population. There is no problem there, or in the vast majority of everywhere else.

There is plenty of scope for a Critique of Islam without resorting to making stuff up, especially not when you are using what you have said as a justification for war which has the potential to kill hundreds of people - I would have hope that as Christians we would be more cautious than to make such damaging generalisations

I borrowed this from someone else.

Well, let's have a look at what we know about "muslim society".

1. Women are second-class citizens
2. It's ok to lie to non-muslim, infidels.
3. Sharia law is oppressive.
4. Lynching and stoning are ok on the word of questionable witnesses for crimes in morality.
5. All people of the world should bow/submit to Allah or die by beheading.
6. Israel is evil and deserves to be "wiped off the map" in Islamic ideology.

And what of the countries that claim Islam?
1. Egypt.
2. Somalia
3. Syria
4. Libya
5. Turkey
6. Lebanon
7. Iran
6. Iraq
7. Saudi Arabia
8. Pakistan
9. Afganistan

Are they garden spots rich in art, music and culture, freedom of expression, love of life, on the cutting edge of advancements in science, medicine, technology? Where are the muslim inventors? Where are the muslim artists? What contributions have muslims given to the world? Should I plan my next vacation to one of these countries or will I risk kidnapping and beheading? I can come to Australia and I will certainly not be disappointed in the richness of your culture, your freedom, your art and music, and should I get hurt or fall ill, I am comforted by the fact that Australia's medical community is one of the best in the world. I cannot say that about any of the countries listed above.

All I see from that part of the world is death, destruction, doom and gloom, beheadings and suicide bombings for the sake of allah, forced submission, torture, beatings, advancements only in bomb-making so that more death and destruction can befall the innocent.

And my personal experience with muslims in America is their pride and rudeness, lying to me (an infidel), and hatred toward America...hating our Independence Day holiday (July 4th).

Their ideology and culture is based on their belief system (Quran) just as our ideology and culture is based on our belief system (Biblical - largely Christian).

Also see post # 78 at this link
http://foru.ms/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=39614680