Wounded?

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
Do you believe that those who have not been baptized are not free from the power of this sin?

Thanks,
God bless

I'll say who ever does not have the power of the Holy Spirit living in them does not. OR who ever ignores the Holy Spirit's help does not.

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Shelb5 said:
I'll say who ever does not have the power of the Holy Spirit living in them does not.

How does one get the power of the Holy Spirit to live in them?

OR who ever ignores the Holy Spirit's help does not.

Okay.

God bless

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Baptism, and/or being born again but the Holy Spirit comes in seed form and we must grow those seeds if we are to be successful in controlling our passions. We do this through by developing virtue.

Metanoia02 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
What do you mean by "baptism of blood?"

This refers to martyrdom. Giving ones life for the cause of Christ.

raptor13 · Jan 14, 2004

baptism by blood is martyrdom for Christ without having being baptized yet, isnt it?

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Baptism, and/or being born again but the Holy Spirit comes in seed form and we must grow those seeds if we are to be successful in controlling our passions. We do this through by developing virtue.

Uh...okay. I'm getting in way over my head.

Thanks,
God bless

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Metanoia02 and Raptor13, thanks for the explanation.

God bless

Metanoia02 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
How strongly does this "inclination to sin" exert control over the actions we actually commit?

This is the essence of spiritual warfare. God has given us His Church, His Word, His Sacraments and His Spirit. These are all available to battle this "inclination to sin". The degree to which it controls our actions is related to our use of these things which God has freely given us.

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
Uh...okay. I'm getting in way over my head.

Thanks,
God bless

Just take it slow your doing fine by asking one question at a time.

Virtues are gifts, we have the theological virtue which are faith hope and love that we are given at baptism but in seed form. Then there are the beauattitudes which I am sure you are familiar with, and the cardinal virtues which are prudence, wisdom, council fortitude and temperance, humility and Im sure I have left some out.

These all are only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit but like muscles in your body, you have to use these gifts in order for them to grow and when you mature these virtues you are cooperating with the Holy Spirit help and you have the power in you to defeat the power of sin. These things come to live in a Christian but they have to be developed. They are weapons against evil but you have to use them.

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Metanoia02 said:
This is the essence of spiritual warfare. God has given us His Church, His Word, His Sacraments and His Spirit. These are all available to battle this "inclination to sin". The degree to which it controls our actions is related to our use of these things which God has freely given us.

How about before baptism? Or does it not make a difference?

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Virtues are gifts, we have the theological virtue which are faith hope and love that we are given at baptism but in seed form.

Which baptism are you talking about?

Then there are the beauattitudes which I am sure you are familiar with, and the cardinal virtues which are? prudence, wisdom, council fortitude and temperance, humility and I?m sure I have left some out.

Are any of this available to the unbaptized?

These all are only possible by the power of the Holy Spirit but like muscles in your body, you have to use these gifts in order for them to grow and when you mature these virtues you are cooperating with the Holy Spirit? help and you have the power in you to defeat the power of sin. These things come to live in a Christian but they have to be developed. They are weapons against evil but you have to use them.

I see. Are these virtues non-existant a non-Christian?

God bless

Metanoia02 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
How about before baptism? Or does it not make a difference?

No, without the aid of the Holy Spirit we are defenseless in spiritual warfare. That is one of the great thing about Baptism.

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
Which baptism are you talking about?

Well I'll be ecumenical and say how ever you are born again. We of course believe it is through baptism, water baptism but we also acknowledge that God is not bound only by those means.

Are any of this available to the unbaptized?

no not the un born again. But God can give a person who is not Christian actual grace to be virtuous if he so pleases.

I see. Are these virtues non-existent a non-Christian?

God bless

They are non existent to those who do not have the Holy Spirit living in them or to those who ignore and reject the Holy Spirit that lives in them You can have the graces that comes from being born again but they are not operative if you reject them and ignore them.

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
How about before baptism? Or does it not make a difference?

ALL the baptized have the power of the Holy Spirit living in them (He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world) and confirmation strengthens this and seals it but the grace will not be operative if the person does not cooperate with that grace.

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Metanoia02 said:
No, without the aid of the Holy Spirit we are defenseless in spiritual warfare. That is one of the great thing about Baptism.

So those who have not been baptized are without the aid of the Holy Spirit and defenseless in spiritual warfare? What about our free will? Don't we have free will to defend us against sin?

Reformationist · Jan 14, 2004

Shelb5 said:
ALL the baptized have the power of the Holy Spirit living in them (He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world) and confirmation strengthens this and seals it but the grace will not be operative if the person does not cooperate with that grace.

So the grace only accomplishes it's purpose if we cooperate with it? Don't you think that would frustrate God?

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
So the grace only accomplishes it's purpose if we cooperate with it? Don't you think that would frustrate God?

Maybe we can finally get to the bottom of this. You seem to think that this grace has to accomplish salvation in a person or it is a waste of grace.

God wants his people to be healed and free and saved but he does not want puppets. He gives in the form of many graces the remedy to our sick nature but He allows the choice to throw it away if that is what the person chooses. However, God is the only judge, he is the only one who knows what goes on in a persons heart why they reject Him and he judges the soul accordingly.

Try to undersatnd that God deos not see us evil people He sees us as sick (ill) people who choose to become evil. They are the ones who go to Hell. It is not a matter of what the garce acomplishes or doesn't acomplish.

Benedicta00 · Jan 14, 2004

Reformationist said:
So those who have not been baptized are without the aid of the Holy Spirit and defenseless in spiritual warfare? What about our free will? Don't we have free will to defend us against sin?

The natural man can not do the supernatural. The Holy Spirit enables the supernatural. A person can will to fight but he has no power with out the Holy Spirit. he is gonna lose, it is not a freedom related issue.

Carrye · Jan 14, 2004

Shelb5 said:
with out the Holy Spirit. he is gonna lose, it is not a freedom related issue.

This statement gets right down to the heart of the matter, and answers the OP's question. Before original sin, it was a freedom related issue. But Adam & Eve chose to turn from God, and thus we all bear the consequences. This is what original sin has done. While we still have our free will, as God continues to give us that, it is an imperfect will; it does not always know (or want to know) right from wrong - it is wounded, we are wounded.

Metanoia02 · Jan 15, 2004

Reformationist said:
So those who have not been baptized are without the aid of the Holy Spirit and defenseless in spiritual warfare? What about our free will? Don't we have free will to defend us against sin?

I'm not sure if this will help answer your question but it is the best definition of the way this works. From the Council of Trent:

"aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God."

This all takes place before baptism. The Holy Spirit works to enlighten the unbaptized person. All persons have the moral law written upon thier hearts and embedded in our conscience. Free will gives us the opportunity to follow that moral law and to seek the Lawgiver, God. So when you ask can we by our own free will defend ourselves from sin, I would say No. It is the Holy Spirit that moves us to seek goodness and justice. This is a grace from God. How we respond to this grace is crucial. In the hearts of man there is a critical point where one must answer the question "Where does this goodness and justice come from". Does it come from my person or does it come from God? Do we seek this God or do we glorify ourselves as the source of all goodnes and justice. We must make that choice.

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