Wounded?

[Reformationist]

Hello everyone. I have often heard Catholic Christians say that man's nature was "wounded" in the Fall and I was wondering what that means.

If anyone is willing to discuss this with me I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Cary.Melvin]

Hello everyone. I have often heard Catholic Christians say that man's nature was "wounded" in the Fall and I was wondering what that means.

If anyone is willing to discuss this with me I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
God bless

I imagine it has something to do with original sin.

 

[nyj]

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

 

[Phoebe]

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Awesome and very useful information.

 

[thereselittleflower]

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

This is different than the teaching of total depravity that the Reformers held to . .where there is the teaching of total depravity within Protestantism, Catholics do not hold to that view . . as the Catechism states above, we do not believe human nature was totally corrupted . .


Peace in Him!

 

[MorphRC]

All sin started with original Sin, IE: Original [First].

 

[Debi1967]

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Hey I like this. Sums it all up. And the explanation is comprehendable. thanx for the info on my Journey. It will come in handy I am sure.
In Christ

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Thank God for the the Catechism!


The Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

 

[MorphRC]

Hey I like this. Sums it all up. And the explanation is comprehendable. thanx for the info on my Journey. It will come in handy I am sure.
In Christ

It is eh Debi? Its amazing that Non-Catholics dont use the Catechism to learn, The Catechism in my first day of reading answered 12 questions I didnt have a clue about, like:

Why would God make us?
CCC: With His undying and ever growing love, grace and goodness, He wanted us to share in this and all tha makes Him. [Not the exact verse, my version].

 

[Debi1967]

It is eh Debi? Its amazing that Non-Catholics dont use the Catechism to learn, The Catechism in my first day of reading answered 12 questions I didnt have a clue about, like:

Why would God make us?
CCC: With His undying and ever growing love, grace and goodness, He wanted us to share in this and all tha makes Him. [Not the exact verse, my version].

Yeah this is why I am here I am finally getting all those pesky little things answered and I am loving the whole thing all at the same time.
Before Debi=fustrated,unhappy,unable to find suitable answers/oranswers that made sense
Now Debi=Happy, overjoyed, finally filled up inside, questions being answered, Holy Spirit felt like never felt before, Euphoric, ect can't explain it all
In Christ
Debi
Ps I forgot giddy and silly over it too

 

[Reformationist]

I imagine it has something to do with original sin.

Uh...yeah. Kinda figured that. I guess I was just asking for someone to elaborate on your church's meaning of that term.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Thanks nyj.

So, what does it mean to have an "inclination to evil?"

And when this paragraph mentions baptism I assume it is talking about water baptism?

Also, you mention that baptism "erases original sin" but "the consequences persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle." What "consequences" is this referring to?

Thanks again,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

This is different than the teaching of total depravity that the Reformers held to . .where there is the teaching of total depravity within Protestantism, Catholics do not hold to that view . . as the Catechism states above, we do not believe human nature was totally corrupted . .


Peace in Him!

Um...thanks. I already know that Catholics don't hold the view of total depravity nor do I want this to be a discussion about the differences between the doctrine of total depravity and man's wounded nature.

But, thanks for the clarification.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

All sin started with original Sin, IE: Original [First].

Um...okay. How does that explain what is meant by "wounded?"

 

[Benedicta00]

Thanks nyj.

So, what does it mean to have an "inclination to evil?"

And when this paragraph mentions baptism I assume it is talking about water baptism?

Also, you mention that baptism "erases original sin" but "the consequences persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle." What "consequences" is this referring to?

Thanks again,
God bless

It means the punishment that was due the sin, hell, is gone for original sin but the effects of the sin, a wounded nature, remains and it summons man to battle. He does not do the good he wants and he does the evil he doesn’t want. I linked you twice, third time a charm maybe, I don’t know but here it is again.

13. Although he was made by God in a state of holiness, from the very onset of his history man abused his liberty, at the urging of the Evil One. Man set himself against God and sought to attain his goal apart from God. Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, but their senseless minds were darkened and they served the creature rather than the Creator.(3) What divine revelation makes known to us agrees with experience. Examining his heart, man finds that he has inclinations toward evil too, and is engulfed by manifold ills which cannot come from his good Creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his beginning, man has disrupted also his proper relationship to his own ultimate goal as well as his whole relationship toward himself and others and all created things.

Therefore man is split within himself. As a result, all of human life, whether individual or collective, shows itseLf to be a dramatic struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness. Indeed, man finds that by himself he is incapable of battling the assaults of evil successfully, so that everyone feels as though he is bound by chains. But the Lord Himself came to free and strengthen man, renewing him inwardly and casting out that "prince of this world" (John 12:31) who held him in the bondage of sin.(4) For sin has diminished man, blocking his path to fulfillment.

The call to grandeur and the depths of misery, both of which are a part of human experience, find their ultimate and simultaneous explanation in the light of this revelation.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_.../vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

 

[Reformationist]

It means the punishment that was due the sin, hell, is gone for original sin but the effects of the sin, a wounded nature, remains and it summons man to battle. He does not do the good he wants and he does the evil he doesn?t want. I linked you twice, third time a charm maybe, I don?t know but here it is again.

13. Although he was made by God in a state of holiness, from the very onset of his history man abused his liberty, at the urging of the Evil One. Man set himself against God and sought to attain his goal apart from God. Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, but their senseless minds were darkened and they served the creature rather than the Creator.(3) What divine revelation makes known to us agrees with experience. Examining his heart, man finds that he has inclinations toward evil too, and is engulfed by manifold ills which cannot come from his good Creator. Often refusing to acknowledge God as his beginning, man has disrupted also his proper relationship to his own ultimate goal as well as his whole relationship toward himself and others and all created things.

Therefore man is split within himself. As a result, all of human life, whether individual or collective, shows itseLf to be a dramatic struggle between good and evil, between light and darkness. Indeed, man finds that by himself he is incapable of battling the assaults of evil successfully, so that everyone feels as though he is bound by chains. But the Lord Himself came to free and strengthen man, renewing him inwardly and casting out that "prince of this world" (John 12:31) who held him in the bondage of sin.(4) For sin has diminished man, blocking his path to fulfillment.

The call to grandeur and the depths of misery, both of which are a part of human experience, find their ultimate and simultaneous explanation in the light of this revelation.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_.../vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

I am not aware of previously being "linked" but I appreciate the info.

You mention that man "does not do the good he wants and he does the evil he doesn?t want." Does this apply to those who have not been baptized or only to those who have been baptized?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

I am not aware of previously being "linked" but I appreciate the info.

You mention that man "does not do the good he wants and he does the evil he doesn?t want." Does this apply to those who have not been baptized or only to those who have been baptized?

Thanks,
God bless

It refers to human nature in general. Baptism is the power the frees us from this. Paul speaks about the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to be transformed. We call this healing the wounds of sin.

 

[nyj]

So, what does it mean to have an "inclination to evil?"

An inclination to evil, also termed "concupiscence" is described by the Catechism as follows:

CCC 2515 Etymologically, "concupiscence" can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the "flesh" against the "spirit." Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man's moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.

And when this paragraph mentions baptism I assume it is talking about water baptism?

It can also refer to the "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood".

Also, you mention that baptism "erases original sin" but "the consequences persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle." What "consequences" is this referring to?

The consequences are: a subjection to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclination to sin.

 

[Reformationist]

It refers to human nature in general. Baptism is the power the frees us from this. Paul speaks about the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to be transformed. We call this healing the wounds of sin.

Do you believe that those who have not been baptized are not free from the power of this sin?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

CCC 2515 Etymologically, "concupiscence" can refer to any intense form of human desire.

This is a strange sentence. Not because I disagree with it but because of the vehement way in which so many Catholics took issue with an earlier thread of mine about how our desires control our actions. Anyway, just thought it was strange that the CCC places this much emphasis on the desires of man.

An inclination to evil, also termed "concupiscence" is described by the Catechism as follows:

CCC 2515 Etymologically, "concupiscence" can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the "flesh" against the "spirit." Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man's moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.

Hmmm...I guess I'm still confused about the effect of having an inclination to sin has on man. Does that mean that they always desire to sin? Only half the time? It varies?

It can also refer to the "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood".

What do you mean by "baptism of blood?"

The consequences are: a subjection to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclination to sin.

How strongly does this "inclination to sin" exert control over the actions we actually commit?

Thanks,
God bless