Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Lazarus Short · Jul 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
So far I still haven’t seen an viable explanation of how UR doesn’t contradict Matthew 7:21

What makes you think that those saying "Lord, Lord" but not doing the Will of the Father will never do that Will? The verse is a snapshot, not a movie.

RickReads · Jul 15, 2021

Cormack said:
Well sir, as the judge said to the defendant: “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

Great making properties have been argued for in one form or another so far back as Augustine (354-430) and Anselm of Canterbury (1093-1109.)

As much as I’d love to dunk on that shifty Augustine for being a new ager, he’s too dang old.

Although this is overlooking the fact that I’ve already shown you great making properties from the Bible (e.g. pride or humility, wisdom or foolishness, knowledge or ignorance.)

If you have ever used the prefix “omni” you’re knee deep in the waters of perfect being theology.

The term "New Age" is rhetorical. Most of it is recycled philosophies from the past.

Thanks, but I don`t need to entertain the philosophies of men to know that Jesus is worthy. I made a decision as a young man to seek my wisdom from the gospel. I`m not interested in changing that plan now.

Romans 2

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

2nd Timothy 2

"Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things. Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:"

BNR32FAN · Jul 15, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
What makes you think that those saying "Lord, Lord" but not doing the Will of the Father will never do that Will? The verse is a snapshot, not a movie.

Well if at any point everyone enters the kingdom of Heaven then everyone who said to Him Lord Lord will have entered Heaven so this would make His statement in verse 21 incorrect. He can’t rightly say that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will not enter the kingdom of Heaven of everyone will enter Heaven.

RickReads · Jul 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Well if at any point everyone enters the kingdom of Heaven then everyone who said to Him Lord Lord will have entered Heaven so this would make His statement in verse 21 incorrect. He can’t rightly say that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will not enter the kingdom of Heaven of everyone will enter Heaven.

The word "not" has been mistranslated.

Lazarus Short · Jul 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Well if at any point everyone enters the kingdom of Heaven then everyone who said to Him Lord Lord will have entered Heaven so this would make His statement in verse 21 incorrect. He can’t rightly say that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will not enter the kingdom of Heaven of everyone will enter Heaven.

Or is Jesus the Christ simply saying that confessing with your lips is not quite enough? Remember that all will at some point in the future bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. He's saying that that is good, but not sufficient.

ozso · Jul 16, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Well if at any point everyone enters the kingdom of Heaven then everyone who said to Him Lord Lord will have entered Heaven so this would make His statement in verse 21 incorrect. He can’t rightly say that everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will not enter the kingdom of Heaven of everyone will enter Heaven.

Here's the thing though, were are Jesus and these people when Jesus is telling them this?

And are there levels of heaven, as indicated by Paul talking about the third heaven? I don't know where it comes from, but supposedly there are 7 levels of Heaven. One might conclude that the kingdom with its pearly gates is the seventh level of heaven.

ozso · Jul 16, 2021

RickReads said:
The word "not" has been mistranslated.

So what's the correct translation?

ozso · Jul 16, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
Or is Jesus the Christ simply saying that confessing with your lips is not quite enough? Remember that all will at some point in the future bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. He's saying that that is good, but not sufficient.

It seems obvious to me that they had been making a false profession. Perhaps Jesus was telling them to go away until they get it right.

Lazarus Short · Jul 16, 2021

MMXX said:
It seems obvious to me that they had been making a false profession. Perhaps Jesus was telling them to go away until they get it right.

That sounds correct to me.

RickReads · Jul 16, 2021

MMXX said:
So what's the correct translation?

The remark was satire.

ozso · Jul 16, 2021

RickReads said:
The remark was satire.

That escaped me. So I looked it up. There actually is no "not" per se.

"Not everyone" πᾶς (pas) 3956: all, every Definition: all, every. Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.

Kind of like [not] all. Maybe you were onto something after all.

GallagherM · Jul 16, 2021

It all starts in the heart confessing with your mouth does not matter if your heart hasn’t changed. There is a difference between saying you believe but not in your heart.

Lord Lord did we not do cast out demons and prophesy in your name?

They were using the name of Christ but they are also trying to be justified by their actions of what they did in the name of Christ.

Christ said to love God and love others; not boast about the works you have done.

The true works done in a person is from in their heart that is the work of the spirit of Christ which to Work comes from the Father himself.

By a person allowing God to work on their hearts and minds.

BNR32FAN · Jul 16, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
Or is Jesus the Christ simply saying that confessing with your lips is not quite enough? Remember that all will at some point in the future bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord. He's saying that that is good, but not sufficient.

I think He’s simply saying exactly what He said. Not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter Heaven.

GallagherM · Jul 16, 2021

People will try to work for the Father instead of letting the Father work in them. Allowing a new heart and changed mind. Their heart hasn’t been changed and they are trying to justify themselves before God.

No one is able to do this… did you know the work of God is for us to believe one the one whom He has sent. Jesus Christ works was finished on the cross for the Father which allows us to be made right with God by and through faith.

We inherit on behalf of Christ - righteousness through faith and we can not take any credit for any type of ‘work for him’.

It would be impossible to please God without faith. It also seems that one can not be justified by their own works. All people who are believers will be judged on the last day of life; and no one can say I done all these great things for you…

It was the Son of God who did the greatest of all works for all of mankind. So don’t lose track or sight of that, friends.

Any amount of Good Works you do should be credited to God and not to ones own self.

“that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus, for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you — of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast; for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:7-10‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Saint Steven · Jul 16, 2021

MMXX said:
It seems obvious to me that they had been making a false profession. Perhaps Jesus was telling them to go away until they get it right.

I think you can make a god out of methodology. That is what's being addressed here. Not their destination in the afterlife.

They were operating in miracles, so God was involved. We can't do miracles without him actually doing them through us. There are methods surrounding these works that will be effective even if you don't have a relationship with Jesus. (Mark 9:38-40) A person can chase these methodologies and miss the relationship, or mistake the miracle working for a relationship, or overshadow the relationship to the point where it no longer exists.

Those Jesus mentioned were surprised by what he said, citing the miracles as an example of how much a part of the kingdom they were. Which was actually a valid reason. (Mark 16:17)

ozso · Jul 16, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think you can make a god out of methodology. That is what's being addressed here. Not their destination in the afterlife.

They were operating in miracles, so God was involved. We can't do miracles without him actually doing them through us. There are methods surrounding these works that will be effective even if you don't have a relationship with Jesus. (Mark 9:38-40) A person can chase these methodologies and miss the relationship, or mistake the miracle working for a relationship, or overshadow the relationship to the point where it no longer exists.

Those Jesus mentioned were surprised by what he said, citing the miracles as an example of how much a part of the kingdom they were. Which was actually a valid reason. (Mark 16:17)

I always took it as performing false miracles.

Hmm · Jul 17, 2021

Not that it's needed now we seem to have reached universal agreement but I was reading something on the burning sulfur-lake that put it into a new perspective.

One of the verses looked at was Revelation 21:8

But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, the idol worshipers, and all liars - their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

The point was made that that sulfur in fire has long been used in traditional metallurgy to separate and purify gold from other metals.
And as regards the "second death" part, this could could be "death" in the way it is meant even in this life when we are called to die to self and to sin every day, and are said to have been baptized into Christ's death.

This verse was coupled with these other two about being salted with fire and the testing:

...if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into Gehenna, where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; but if salt has lost its saltiness, how can you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.
Mark 9:47-50

if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

RickReads · Jul 17, 2021

Hmm said:
if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

You are sort of cobbling sentences together to make them say what you need them to.

The 1 Corinthians passage merits mention. Jesus is the foundation and the passage is about rewards applicable to those who build up the body of Christ.
Faulty work burns up.

Hmm · Jul 17, 2021

RickReads said:
You are sort of cobbling sentences together to make them say what you need them to.

I don't need them to say anything. I'm just looking for the reading of the Bible that makes the most sense of a loving and grace-filled God. Any need is the need for exclusivity. However, Jesus died for all and God desires all to be saved.

RickReads said:
The 1 Corinthians passage merits mention. Jesus is the foundation and the passage is about rewards applicable to those who build up the body of Christ. Faulty work burns up.

Correct. Faulty words burns up but, to repeat from the verse, ”the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.”

a-lily-of-peace · Jul 17, 2021

Yes, I would want it to be true, but it’s not about my wants over the will of the Father.

I see now more as I look at people how sad it is. How easy to judge someone who you just catch in the middle of doing something awful, being spiteful, gleefully pursuing unrighteousness, but under all that is a human being made in the image of God who could be saved and redeemed and cleansed by the blood of Christ and made new.

I talked to someone at my church about the possibility of someone repenting on their deathbed, between them and God, no one would know until we see them in heaven.

For so many people I hope that is true.

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

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