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This is exactly the kind of response I was talking about.
I didn`t put any work into my posts on this thread. Making a list of scriptures isn`t hard but it is time-consuming and you already said you didn`t want to have a discussion with me.
I don`t need verses about hell to refute Universalism. Lots of scriptures plainly tell us that God intends to punish the wicked, that He can and does get angry, that He will avenge His elect Etc. Etc. Etc.
You've taken on hell and debunked it without ever addressing the question of universalism.
And that was a very naughty Pontiff. I know Catholics who weren’t best pleased by that display of public relations gold.
No.
Now as for what I was saying in the previous post, anyone who comes down on the side of actually deciding that universalism is God's way does so with almost no Scriptural support. There is, however, plenty of Scriptural support for the belief that some are saved and some are lost.
Why shouldn't this fact rank higher in the estimation of any Christian than all the wishing and guessing that the other side is forced to do?
The way the discussion has turned, I feel impelled to post this, and leave it at that. It is the distillation of over two years of inquiry below the surface of a very ordinary King James Bible.
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”
2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.
3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.
4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.
8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all...as we see in I Corinthians 15.
9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference.
10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.
12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.
13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.
14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.
16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.
17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.
18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.
19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.
20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.
21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.
22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.
23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.
They will defend to the bitter end whatever their favorite sin happens to be (not that this is a sin we are talking about on this thread, but the same reasoning applies) by refashioning God into a "good guy" who wouldn't think of being "mean" to them by having any standards or expectations of his creatures that might cause them any discomfort.
It isn`t necessary to discuss hell to refute Universalism. That`s one of its fatal weaknesses.
One of the biggest scriptural arguments against hell, is that it doesn't exist in the entire Old Testament. Despite translators erroneously or perhaps deceptively calling words like grave "hell".
I expect this to be completely ignored by detractors and for them to continue claiming no one uses scripture to back up UR.
"This is too long. It's too much info to absorb. It's probably all wrong so I'm not bother with it. Now why don't you ever provide scripture?"
You're trying to move the goal posts. If I can (and I did) deconstruct Hell, then Damnationism collapses. If God did not make Hell to burn the wicked in forever and ever amen, then He surely will not reduce them to ashes either. That leaves only the salvation of all, but you won't have it.
You're trying to move the goal posts. If I can (and I did) deconstruct Hell, then Damnationism collapses. If God did not make Hell to burn the wicked in forever and ever amen, then He surely will not reduce them to ashes either. That leaves only the salvation of all, but you won't have it.
I don`t think it really matters because it isn`t necessary to prove what hell(etc) is. A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.
But the only point of the whole list of verses is that the word hell is used in each one. I don`t think it really matters because it isn`t necessary to prove what hell(etc) is. A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.
Yeah I agree. Instead of "that's really good comprehensive research utilizing a lot of scripture". It's "just because you took hell apart, that doesn't make UR true". The main thrust of UR is disproving the eternal damnation doctrine.
Well, if there is no eternal hell, and no annihilation, then universalism must by definition be true. What are these other issues that would weigh against it?
A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.
I`ve not professed to believe in what you call damnation doctrine in almost 20 years and I think it`s possible that alternatives should have been used.
Maybe that's why you have trouble understanding me. My only focus is looking for proofs for universal salvation.
ECT is simply not compatible with the loving God we see in the Bible.
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