Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Cormack · Jun 23, 2021

@grasping the after wind #6 helps with definitions. Considering that the ground is cursed in Genesis and the animals are cursed and humanity too are cursed, it’s more like the reconciliation of all living things.

Or if that’s too abstract we could boil the whole question down to would you prefer that everyone be saved? Yes or no, and then why yes or no.

Cormack · Jun 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
Jesus loves the world and reconciled it unto Him. That's the Plan.
We are to love the Plan Jesus loves.

It’s most helpful if we see this hypothetical Christian universalism as Gods plan and God given, so if people reply “it’s not in my Bible therefore I no prefer it!” That’s avoiding the original question, which is an easy question.

grasping the after wind · Jun 23, 2021

Cormack said:
@grasping the after wind #6 helps with definitions. Considering that the ground is cursed in Genesis and the animals are cursed and humanity too are cursed, it’s more like the reconciliation of all living things.

Or if that’s too abstract we could boil the whole question down to would you prefer that everyone be saved? Yes or no, and then why yes or no.

Certainly I would prefer everyone be saved. Why? because I am very fond of my fellow human beings. I wish them all well. There is no reason why I would want anyone to not be saved seeing as I no more deserve d salvation than anyone else besides which my mandate from Christ is to love my neighbor as I love myself.

grasping the after wind · Jun 23, 2021

When two parties are at odds with each other, it is necessary that both parties desire a reconciliation if reconciliation is to be achieved. If one distains the overtures of the other then such reconciliation does not occur.

Cormack · Jun 23, 2021

@grasping the after wind

But you would prefer that the reconciliation occurred, even at the risk of you being theologically wrong (assuming you’re not a universalist right now.) You prefer that the human parties at enmity with God be reconciled.

You want to follow Gods command to love those people who are not yet reconciled because you want to “love your neighbour as yourself.”

Anyone who loved himself and wanted the best for himself, namely a relationship with God, they would want that relationship for other people too.

I thought that was a very enlightening part of your answer.

parousia70 · Jun 23, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
When two parties are at odds with each other, it is necessary that both parties desire a reconciliation if reconciliation is to be achieved. If one distains the overtures of the other then such reconciliation does not occur.

Are you saying God is incapable of reconciling the whole world unto Himself without the permission of the people in the world?

Does the Potter need the clay's permission before he can mold the clay into whatever he wants?

parousia70 · Jun 23, 2021

Cormack said:
You want to follow Gods command to love those people who are not yet reconciled because you want to “love your neighbour as yourself.”

It is Important to point out that this command was given for our benefit, not for the benefit of our neighbor.

When we forgive our neighbor, we reap the benefits every time.
Regardless if the person we are forgiving wants to accept that forgiveness or not, the forgiveness we freely give them is still 100% effectual.

Their reaction of others to our forgiveness is irrelevant to the efficacy of our forgiveness of them.

grasping the after wind · Jun 23, 2021

Cormack said:
@grasping the after wind

But you would prefer that the reconciliation occurred, even at the risk of you being theologically wrong (assuming you’re not a universalist right now.) You prefer that the human parties at enmity with God be reconciled.

You want to follow Gods command to love those people who are not yet reconciled because you want to “love your neighbour as yourself.”

Anyone who loved himself and wanted the best for himself, namely a relationship with God, they would want that relationship for other people too.

I thought that was a very enlightening part of your answer.

I already answered that question. My answer did not change because I pointed out a fact of relationships. I repeat, I would prefer that everyone be saved. I would prefer a lot of things that don't happen. My wanting something doesn't make it happen. What I want or what I would prefer is irrelevant to what is or what will be.

grasping the after wind · Jun 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
Are you saying God is incapable of reconciling the whole world unto Himself without the permission of the people in the world?

Does the Potter need the clay's permission before he can mold the clay into whatever he wants?

No I am not saying that. I am saying that the world is exactly as God made it and therefore He obviously intended that for a reconciliation to take place both parties must desire it. Otherwise we would see people being reconciled by the actions of only one of two parties at ou odds with each other. Are you going to tell me He can't do what He wants to do but instead has to act and create the world in the way that you prefer He create it? That He must force reconciliation on those that do not desire it even if that was never his intention?

grasping the after wind · Jun 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
It is Important to point out that this command was given for our benefit, not for the benefit of our neighbor.

When we forgive our neighbor, we reap the benefits every time.
Regardless if the person we are forgiving wants to accept that forgiveness or not, the forgiveness we freely give them is still 100% effectual.

Their reaction to our forgiveness is irrelevant to the efficacy of our forgiveness.

True. However, could that command have been given to us for the benefit of both parties? If the forgiveness is rejected, then the one rejecting it has refused reconciliation and no reconciliation occurs. That is not the doing of the one that offered forgiveness.

parousia70 · Jun 23, 2021

grasping the after wind said:
No I am not saying that. I am saying that the world is exactly as God made it and therefore He obviously intended that for a reconciliation to take place both parties must desire it. Otherwise we would see people being reconciled by the actions of only one of two parties at ou odds with each other. Are you going to tell me He can't do what He wants to do but instead has to act and create the world in the way that you prefer He create it? That He must force reconciliation on those that do not desire it even if that was never his intention?

And the point I made about Forgiveness?

When I forgive my neighbor who wronged me, do I need Him to desire and accept my forgiveness before he is actually forgiven by me?

Or is the power and efficacy of my forgiveness of him 100% dependent on me?

If I completely forgive my neighbor without His desire and acceptance, am I somehow FORCING something upon Him against His will?

Tigger45 · Jun 23, 2021

No, what sounds good is not always good. I would prefer all to enjoy the Love of the Lord but my desire to be one with the Lord may not be that enjoyable to others. God is Truth and if universalism were true God would teach it as such.

Plus if universalism were true there would be no need for the great commission Matthew 28:16-20. It’s coined the great commission not the great compromise

angelsaroundme · Jun 23, 2021

I don't know if I believe in it or not but I'd prefer it were true, that all should be washed clean in the blood of the Lamb and able to enjoy peace everlasting.

martymonster · Jun 23, 2021

Obviously God thinks that the salvation of all is the perfect plan, but he seems unable to execute it. I was lead to believe that he was capable of executing any plan... flawlessly.

zoidar · Jun 23, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Yes, I would like there to be temporary punishment instead of eternal, that there was a possibility for those in the outer darkness to repent and receive Christ. But life is real, life has consequences, what God has planned is the outmost good even I am saddened to think about such matters.

Why are you asking?

parousia70 · Jun 23, 2021

Tigger45 said:
Plus if universalism were true there would be no need for the great commission Matthew 28:16-20.

Wait....Isn't Matthew 28:19 the very vehicle by which it is to be achieved?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Does scripture teach the great commission will be a failure?

Did Jesus send His disciples out on a mission doomed to fail?
Or is this scripture true?:
Matthew 16:
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

RDKirk · Jun 23, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

I don't presume a judgment either way on what God does.

Jesus is YHWH · Jun 23, 2021

Cormack said:
So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No it makes scripture and all its warnings a lie.

Tigger45 · Jun 23, 2021

parousia70 said:
Wait....Isn't Matthew 28:19 the very vehicle by which it is to be achieved?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Does scripture teach the great commission will be a failure?

Did Jesus send His disciples out on a mission doomed to fail?
Or is this scripture true?:
Matthew 16:
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

This reasoning fails from the get go. Are all baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?
No, therefore your reading into the verse to achieve that understanding.

RickReads · Jun 23, 2021

It gives me some pause because I don't think we have enough information to judge any of God's actions in this life. So I don`t. When all things are known and my fallen nature is completely gone my perspective is sure to change.

I know God wants to have mercy and I tell people all the time my prayers are for God`s mercy to prevail.
I need His mercy and so does everyone else.

As I see the world in my limited way I think Universalism is a nice idea. Anyone who gets upset when a sinner doesn`t get what they deserve better look in the mirror.

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

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