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So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?
Again, you seem to have the idea that it is torture intended to extract a confession of faith. I view it as restorative. A burning away of the bad that surrounds a person. Not a burning of the person. Wood, hay and stubble. A testing of works. Judgment, if you will.No I don't think that is the purpose of the LoF but it would end up like that for anyone who has rejected Christ in this life and is still spiritually dead in their sin. The pain they would endure would lead them to say anything to make it stop. That's the point of what I am saying and you seem to keep missing it.
What freedom? The freedom of choice?It would make a mockery of freedom.
Jesus said faith the size of a mustard seed could move mountains. How much faith do they need? Is anyone saved by their quantity of faith? How are such things measured?How much faith do you think the unsaved have?
It is like a refiner's fire. It burns away the dross. Or brings it to the surface so that it can be ladled away. This description is metaphorical, of course. I don't think we are put in actual physical fire. Reminds me of this. Why doesn't the prophet cry out in pain? (it doesn't hurt) Also note the effect of this treatment.Why do you think everyone must go through fire and what do you think it does?
Doesn't that infer that God is a cosmic tyrant? An unstable deity that would squash you like a bug if you so much as looked at him? Seems slanderous to me. The God who is full of mercy and abounding in love. But don't cross him, or he will incinerate you. Wow.I'm not about to tell God that I don't like the way that he does something, or his choices.
It is like a refiner's fire. It burns away the dross. Or brings it to the surface so that it can be ladled away. This description is metaphorical, of course. I don't think we are put in actual physical fire. Reminds me of this. Why doesn't the prophet cry out in pain? (it doesn't hurt) Also note the effect of this treatment.
Isaiah 6:5-8 NRSV
And I said: “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. 7 The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” And I said, “Here am I; send me!”
Doesn't that infer that God is a cosmic tyrant? An unstable deity that would squash you like a bug if you so much as looked at him? Seems slanderous to me. The God who is full of mercy and abounding in love. But don't cross him, or he will incinerate you. Wow.
Not at all; how did you get that idea?
I don't believe God SENDS people to hell, nor that he tortures them. Your statement "don't cross him or he'll incinerate you" is not at all Scriptural.
Scripture does indeed teach that he is love, full of mercy, grace and compassion.
But if he DID, he would still be entitled to do that, because he is God, our Creator, and we are his creation who rebelled against him. And arguing and saying "I'd prefer that you didn't do that", would make no difference - that's my only point.
It's a matter of scripture vs interpretation. Steve isn't saying the scriptures teach that, he's saying doctrine teaches that.
Universalism doesn`t rule out the punishment of sinners, it would just rule out the eternal punishing of sinners.
Again, you seem to have the idea that it is torture intended to extract a confession of faith. I view it as restorative. A burning away of the bad that surrounds a person. Not a burning of the person. Wood, hay and stubble. A testing of works. Judgment, if you will.
1 Corinthians3:12-15 NRSV
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 the work of each builder will become visible, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each has done. 14 If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EVERLASTING
denotes everlasting" aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer).
G126 ἀΐδιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon
KJV Dictionary Definition: EVERLASTING
Lasting or enduring for ever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal. The everlasting God, or Jehovah. Gen.21.
Everlasting fire; everlasting punishment. Matt.18.25.
EVERLASTING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
(MY NOTE: 2 Bible dictionary's EVERLASTING = permanence, unchangeableness, enduring for ever, eternal, existing or continuing without end, immortal)
I many verses on everlasting/separation/fire/destruction I'll list 3 here.
Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)
An eye witnesses account given by two or more was enough to enact a death sentence. Moses, Jesus/Matthew & Paul:
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Finally:
Although Jesus sacrifice won the sin war. There is one absolute requirement on mankind's part:
FAITH/BELIEF:
Jn 3:15 That whosoever """believeth""" in Jesus should not perish, but have eternal life
Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
Jn 5:24 Verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, & """believes""" on him that sent me, has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation; & is passed from death unto life
Jn 6:40 This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, & """believes""" on him, may have everlasting life: & I will raise him up at the last day
Jn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, & the life: he that """believes""" in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
Jn 20:31 These are written, that ye might """believe""" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; & that """believing""" ye might have life through his name
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through the name of Jesus Christ who ever """believes""" in him shall receive remission of sins
Acts 13:39 And by Jesus Christ all that """believe""" are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
Acts 16:31 And they said, """Believe""" on the Lord Jesus Christ, & thou shalt be saved
John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever """believes""" in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(MY NOTE: """Believers""" in the Son have everlasting life)
Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that """believeth not""" is condemned already, because he hath """not believed""" in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(MY NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ARE (already-right now) & WILL BE condemned)
Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that """believeth""" on the Son hath everlasting life & he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(MY NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. The EVERLASTING wrath of God will remain on UNBELIEVERS)
Where was Jesus for the three days before his resurrection from the dead?You forget that salvation is in Christ. If any man be in Christ ... maybe they are or maybe they're not. Those who reject Christ will never know salvation, the scriptures make that quite clear.
If you are of the mind that those that reject God's forgiveness will reap those benefits anyway perhaps you would like to present the evidence for that case.
Wouldn't unbelievers have to have everlasting life in order to experience everlasting wrath?
Absolutely, the OP I replied to asked this: Quote: "So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?
My reply is to ""universal reconciliation"".
The 3 scripture I shared don't dispute everlasting life. They speak to everlasting life in heaven/paradise with their Creator. Or an everlasting life of destructive/judgment & separation from Christ.
Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
(MY NOTE: Christ can baptize with His salvation sealing Holy Spirit of fire/judgment)
2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)
So your view is that Sin is never fully eradicated, and instead exists forever?
My post made no such claim.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: EVERLASTING
denotes everlasting" aidios excludes interruption and lays stress upon permanence and unchangeableness" (Cremer).
G126 ἀΐδιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon
KJV Dictionary Definition: EVERLASTING
Lasting or enduring for ever; eternal; existing or continuing without end; immortal. The everlasting God, or Jehovah. Gen.21.
Everlasting fire; everlasting punishment. Matt.18.25.
EVERLASTING - Definition from the KJV Dictionary
(MY NOTE: 2 Bible dictionary's EVERLASTING = permanence, unchangeableness, enduring for ever, eternal, existing or continuing without end, immortal)
I many verses on everlasting/separation/fire/destruction I'll list 3 here.
Matt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
2 Thes 1:
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(MY NOTE: Eternal separation from the presence of the Lord)
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(MY NOTE: Cursed with an everlasting judgment)
An eye witnesses account given by two or more was enough to enact a death sentence. Moses, Jesus/Matthew & Paul:
Deut 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Finally:
Although Jesus sacrifice won the sin war. There is one absolute requirement on mankind's part:
FAITH/BELIEF:
Jn 3:15 That whosoever """believeth""" in Jesus should not perish, but have eternal life
Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
Jn 5:24 Verily, I say to you, He that hears my word, & """believes""" on him that sent me, has everlasting life, shall not come into condemnation; & is passed from death unto life
Jn 6:40 This is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, & """believes""" on him, may have everlasting life: & I will raise him up at the last day
Jn 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, & the life: he that """believes""" in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
Jn 20:31 These are written, that ye might """believe""" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; & that """believing""" ye might have life through his name
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through the name of Jesus Christ who ever """believes""" in him shall receive remission of sins
Acts 13:39 And by Jesus Christ all that """believe""" are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses
Acts 16:31 And they said, """Believe""" on the Lord Jesus Christ, & thou shalt be saved
John 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever """believes""" in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(MY NOTE: """Believers""" in the Son have everlasting life)
Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that """believeth not""" is condemned already, because he hath """not believed""" in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(MY NOTE: Unbelievers in the son ARE (already-right now) & WILL BE condemned)
Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that """believeth""" on the Son hath everlasting life & he that """believeth not""" the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(MY NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. The EVERLASTING wrath of God will remain on UNBELIEVERS)
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