Would you be more likely to join…

Rose_bud said:

I know the answer as Im sure you do to. As we are able to reason and use our God given mental capacities yielded to the Spirit to discover this mystery. Which you indicated we shouldn't do.

I'm not sure the of the relevance of Jn 8:13 to the conversation.

In any case I think we really are reaching beyond the scope of the OP.

As I don't think any of us will be moving to the Catholic faith anytime soon.

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Using human reason to interpret Scripture is risky at best, and more often a grievous error. What does Scripture tell us about the wisdom of men vs the wisdom of God?

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Using human reason to interpret Scripture is risky at best, and more often a grievous error. What does Scripture tell us about the wisdom of men vs the wisdom of God?

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'use our God given mental capacities yielded to the Spirit'

Please respect the request to Clare regarding not to engage me on this topic, its drifting into topics of wisdom.

Rose_bud said:

Your stance on not starting a different thread is noted. However, the questions you raised regarding women roles, ministry, submission etc, is best informed by considering the entire corpus of Scripture. The approach to that would be to consider a biblical theology of the relationship between men and women. IMO
This would narrow the thread of the OP, which as you said is broad.

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The topic is broad, and various aspects can be discussed in it. A broad topic allows MORE discussion, not less.

Rose_bud said:

To do justice to the topic would mean to exegete the text that you consider problematic, which is the creation order, if I understood your previous posts.

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You apparently did not understand.

I presented Peter and Paul, both apostles, giving a consistent message that wives submit to husbands to various churches in various Roman Provinces, and also referencing holy women of old, such as Sarah.

On the other hand some were alleging that those texts meant something else.

I think the burden of proof is on them to show why the texts don't mean what they say.

But I was trying to understand how the notion of the I Timothy text addressing temple prostitution (which is not stated in the text) is related to the actual arguments made (including Adam being made first).

I didn't see any answer that clarified it for me.

Rose_bud said:

The letters of Paul to a certain extent all mention this when referring to women. It would make sense to start there. Thereafter the impact of the fall, the redemption of woman in the gospels, the application of this redemption in the letters of Paul. And finally what will it be when we meet our Maker.

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Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. And if you don't want to do it here, that is up to you. But I have already posted what seems clear enough. Those saying it is not clear can state why.

Rose_bud said:

I hope you do, I think it will be fruitful. I will start a thread and invite you to discuss. The prerogative is yours to respond or not. Although your indication is that you would rather do so here, which I'm not inclined to do.

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The thread is started here. I don't see why it needs to go elsewhere. You were encouraging Clare73 to post more. Why do that if this is the wrong place for it?

If you think a full explanation is needed to turn wives submitting to husbands in to something else, feel free. I don't have the burden to argue against clear statements.

Rose_bud said:

I disagree here Clare we are to be good Bereans who received the word with all readiness of mind, examining and searching to verify what Paul said was true.(Acts 17:11)

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Paul says that Adam was formed first. That checks out.


Paul says the woman was deceived. That seems accurate:

Peter said that Sarah called Abaham lord:
Let me know where you see any issues.

Rose_bud said:

'use our God given mental capacities yielded to the Spirit'

Please respect the request to Clare regarding not to engage me on this topic, its drifting into topics of wisdom.

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Personal interpretation that deviates from Scripture is indeed a question of wisdom; in 1 Corinthians 1:20-31

Adventist Heretic said:

the connection with the family is reading into the issue.

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You seemed to argue against the idea of submission of wives to husbands in general, as well as against the passage in I Timothy, so in that respect you are connecting them even by your rejection of them for the similar theme of submission.

But I think they are connected because you would have a strange situation if there was submission in the homes of believers of wives to husbands, but that order is potentially set on its head in the church. And some of the arguments in both the submission in the home passages, and the women speaking/holding authority passages are theological, and often refer to earlier times. So they are connected by similar arguments.

That having been said, as I mentioned in our off-line discussion, the best bet for the Timothy passage tying in to pagan practices, which are warned against, is not so much temple prostitution (which is nowhere mentioned), but rather looking into the alleged claimed protection during childbirth that artemis was thought to provide by those who prayed to her for such.

The unusual verse about being saved through childbirth is a problem if seen as a soteriological requirement for salvation. But it makes perfect sense if the women are being told to not go to artemis, and seek her as the pagans do, but, rather to trust in God for protection through the process of childbirth.

In this sense it is a polemic against a local false god (which Paul acknowledges are actually demons), similar to the attack on the Egyptian gods in the plagues, showing that God is actually sovereign over the claimed domains of these demons. But it is also an assurance that God is actually capable of helping in this regards.

This could fit local context which they would all know, as the temple of artemis was extremely prominent in the city, and to commercial success, as we see in Acts.

However, while this is a potential tie to the local setting, which would also explain a potentially difficult passage, I don't see this as helping overly much with the related submission issue. You could claim they are still being asked to set a very different tone than artemis supplicants, which seems legitimate.

For discussion on the connection of artemis to perceived protection in childbirth, in sources, see here:

@Adventist Heretic

I think regarding submission of wives to husbands, it might be best to look at the fairly straight-forward passage in 1 Peter 3. There appears to be no situation unique to a given area, because he addresses churches in various Roman provinces:

He ties it to holy women of the past, taking it beyond the local situation:

He references a specific OT passage for support:
Peter references similar cautions to men against treating wives poorly, and assures that women are co-heirs of salvation:

Moreover, since Peter himself was married, apparently even prior to becoming a disciple, as we see early reference to his mother-in-law, and Paul's statement about him having a believing wife, we have none of the allegations that he is just anti-marriage, anti-woman, anti-wives, etc.

There is continuity between the behavior of holy women of old, and those in the New Testament era, in a variety of locations.

Love365 said:

Some women are submissive.

Some women are neutral.

Some women are dominant.

Can some of them become priests?

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Honestly, submissiveness or dominance or whatever has nothing to do with priesthood.

I mean, yes, I'd argue women can be priests. But it doesn't help when people argue for it on grounds that really make no sense!

That'd be more a reason to not join!

Love365 said:

Conservatives should be allowed to do the Latin Mass.

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What is the deal with the Catholic and the Latin Mass.

Adventist Heretic said:

What is the deal with the Catholic and the Latin Mass.

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Like driving a 57 Chevy; it transports one back to a simpler and (perceived) better time. Time wise, the wheels just about fell off of everything around the same time the Novus Ordo was implemented.

Catholic friends of mine from Quebec/Eastern Ontario told me that when the Mass was in Latin both English and French worshiped together in the same parish at the same time; after the introduction of the Novus Ordo, they worshiped separately. Around the same time, the separatist movement got rolling full steam and the "October Crisis" began almost driving Canada into a civil war.

Not saying the outcome would have been better if circumstances were different; but one never knows.

DJWhalen said:

Women have their place but it's not leading the Church. I have no problem if a woman want's to lead Bible study as long as she teaches the WHOLE Bible.

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Grounding his command in God's unchanging creation order, Paul forbids women to be in positions of authority over men in the assembly; i.e., as pastors (2 Tim 2:12-14). You either accept his apostolic authority on the matter, or you don't.
However, women may teach men outside the assembly.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Like driving a 57 Chevy; it transports one back to a simpler and (perceived) better time. Time wise, the wheels just about fell off of everything around the same time the Novus Ordo was implemented.

Catholic friends of mine from Quebec/Eastern Ontario told me that when the Mass was in Latin both English and French worshiped together in the same parish at the same time; after the introduction of the Novus Ordo, they worshiped separately. Around the same time, the separatist movement got rolling full steam and the "October Crisis" began almost driving Canada into a civil war.

Not saying the outcome would have been better if circumstances were different; but one never knows.

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The traditional Latin mass is much more like the reverent LCMS liturgy of your parish, or of traditional high church Anglican parishes, or the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy.

Indeed it is very similar to the Lutheran Latin masses for which JS Bach composed music.

It is much more than nostalgia which causes our traditional friends like @chevyontheriver to attend the TLM where it is still offered.

The Liturgist said:

It is much more than nostalgia which causes our traditional friends like @chevyontheriver to attend the TLM where it is still offered.

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Mostly the novus ordo for me. But Ordinariate sometimes and TLM sometimes. I am not exclusive in that regard. I do think we lost a lot when the 1970 liturgy came along. Bugnini made a mess. Benedict wanted to repair the mess. The new rumor is that next month the TLM is to be totally banned. And that mostly because Traditiones custodes (the jailers of the tradition) made the TLM MORE popular rather than less.

When I moved to my new city four years ago the mass was for the most part shut down. One diocesan parish was open though, and it had the Latin mass. Later as the other parishes reopened and TC was out they were forced to stop the Latin mass and so they now offer it either in English or in Spanish.

I find very interesting the comment about French and English speaking Catholics united by the Latin language. Here we also see Spanish and Vietnamese and other language masses that fragment communities that would have been united using Latin.

Love365 said:

Conservatives should be allowed to do the Latin Mass.

Liberals should be allowed to have women priests.

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Liberals can start up their own organizations. Wait. They have already done that.

chevyontheriver said:

Mostly the novus ordo for me. But Ordinariate sometimes and TLM sometimes. I am not exclusive in that regard. I do think we lost a lot when the 1970 liturgy came along. Bugnini made a mess. Benedict wanted to repair the mess. The new rumor is that next month the TLM is to be totally banned. And that mostly because Traditiones custodes (the jailers of the tradition) made the TLM MORE popular rather than less.

When I moved to my new city four years ago the mass was for the most part shut down. One diocesan parish was open though, and it had the Latin mass. Later as the other parishes reopened and TC was out they were forced to stop the Latin mass and so they now offer it either in English or in Spanish.

I find very interesting the comment about French and English speaking Catholics united by the Latin language. Here we also see Spanish and Vietnamese and other language masses that fragment communities that would have been united using Latin.

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True story; I have shared it with other Quebeckers and while not putting 2 + 2 together at the time, in hind-sight, it resulted in an ecclesial apartheid. Our country remains less unified due to the french/english divide. I recall reading a book called "Two Solitudes"; it was more pollical while capturing the spirit of the mess. The novel predated the mess by about 20 years.

chevyontheriver said:

Liberals can start up their own organizations. Wait. They have already done that.

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A big vacuum that just keeps sucking others into the vortex of socialist doctrine.