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Would someone please prove that creationism is not a crock,

LifeToTheFullest!

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You will use an entire life time...
James 4:14 "Why , you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while then vanishes."
and like Darwin will die and not really have any more answers than he did.What a waste of a life from what God intended.....spending it looking for a needle in a hay stalk.....forfeiting the peace, joy and abundant life He has for you. Looking for answers in all the wrong places, tuning in to theorys that scratch your itchy years.....if you only used part of your faith and seek God like you seek your chance theory of evo......you could truly move mountains. If you look and I am sure everyone has ,you can see design in everything.....just look at a bed of flowers...a butterfly.....a banana......to think that all these things came by by random chance is harder to grasp than "In the beginning God"....Creation declares there is a God............chance declares NOTHING.......Throught the bible Gods attributes are scattered throughout the pages, as you read them you can get a really good idea what God is like. But for the life of me and if you really really , really think about it To think that ALL THIS came to be by your chance theory...with no director, designer, creator is unfathomable....tremendous faith it takes....tremendous...squirmed along for millions of years to the perfect beings we are today, and not just us......all creatures...simutaneously male and female of every species.......faith......evo is a chance theory that requires more faith than I could ever muster up...."oh but we found this little item here and it could possibly link us to our uncle the ape"..."but we are very similar to mice to so might be decendents there too"..."stilll looking for answers though...give us time....bare with us."...time is running out ...the prophesies of the bible on the end times are already developing......You possibly have time to seek God and have all the answers in your life time but you dont have time for answers in your faith evo. 2 Corinthians 6:2 "For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."
It comes down to choice, God did not make us robots so we obey every command, He gave us free will....choices, unlike animals who have insticts and are unable to pray to God. If you cant see the difference then you are truly blind, If you cant see design then you are blind. If you believe that all this came about by chance.....then you have faith in your belief and are blind to the truth. Matthew 15:13-14 ' Jesus replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots . Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." God doesn't change , (evolve) same yesterday today and forever......is the message of the cross foolishness to you? I hope not.
I wish I was kidding, but I'm not, I actually read through this. Couple of questions/points Misssster Anderson.

1. How can you be so arrogant to state that Darwin did not have peace in his life?

2. What is this "design" you speak of? Would examples of design be the recurrent laryngeal nerve in humans? Or perhaps the appendix or lumbar spine in humans. Reproductive organs in males that hang unprotected outside of the body, which leave weak spot in the abdomen as they migrate down during development, leaving males susceptible to inguinal hernias. Or maybe you can explain why a designer would give a penguin wings that don't work. Wouldn't arms with hands have been more beneficial for a ratite bird? Or how about a flat fish with both eyes on top of its head.

Good design? I think not. BTW, which god designed god?

I patiently wait your reply.
 
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MoonLancer

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I always like the "dead horses" where I post something (like embedded age) and, faster than Pluto, you guys start with the automatic and unilateral, "no way" --- only to find out later that you didn't even know what I was talking about.

you don't use definitions properly, so its no wonder that it would seem like we don't know what your talking about.regardless, even when someone does figure out your personalized use of a word, you still end up being wrong.
 
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Hespera

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you don't use definitions properly, so its no wonder that it would seem like we don't know what your talking about.regardless, even when someone does figure out your personalized use of a word, you still end up being wrong.


Its part of the technique for "always being right". Its like how he always says "you guys" dont understand creationism. Of course, there are many flavors of "creationism", none of them are real or make sense, and you wont find out what "creationism" ala the Av is. But pretending he know somehting that others dont still stands as a way to satisfy the need to always be right. Works for some.
 
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atomweaver

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I wouldn't go that far mate.....


Welll...one person, then. :D Anyways, the point was that the Kook actually addressed your comments directly, rather than OMGLOLZWalloftextofmassiveignorance-ing you. Why you and not anyone else? You have asserted a faith position that he feels he can openly attack and disparage... He cannot defend his scientific notions, because they are contradictory nonsense and he knows it... but his inerrant interpretation of the Bible? Different story.
 
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atomweaver

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One type of child abuse that is just really awful is indoctrinating someone.
Kids are programmed to TRUST and respect and believe what adults tell them. And the trust is so often so horribly betrayed. Then they pass that betrayal to the next generation. So deeply sad.

As for polite responses to other Christians (so called) one thing that i can help noticing is that we see people happy to take on any kook, not disagree with any tactics, lies, idiocy as long as that person is for their cause.

I'd only qualify that as "other like-minded Christians". We have Cabal and other Christians here, who are quite capable of rational thinking and clear communication. The lies and idiocy are tolerated only by those who recognize and associate with the real objective; asserting ones faith and attacking all its detractors like good little regurgitating minions... Look to our net-Kook here for proof; he offered up the $250K Hovind prize as though it were 1) still around, and not reclaimed to pay for Hovind's tax evasion 2) offered by someone other than a convicted liar and criminal. The reason Net-Kook values it above any rational argument from evidence is because Hovind is a compulsive liar who supports the same religion that Net-Kook does (Ra-ra! Go, Team Creationist-kooks, Yaaaaayyy!!!) I'm sure net-kook would heartily agree with me; Net-kook would take the word of a convicted compulsive liar and thief who states a belief in the Christian God over the words of an atheist, regardless of the content of their respective arguments.

A person speaks nonsense in the name of science, I call them on it and dont want to be associated / disgraced by them.

I wonder why it so very rare for one christian to say anyhting when someone disgraces their religion and ideas with nonsense and illpgoc?
Maybe one of them could explain it.
Simple. For religious kooks, any Declaration of Faith trumps all rational dialogue.
 
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Hespera

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I'd only qualify that as "other like-minded Christians". We have Cabal and other Christians here, who are quite capable of rational thinking and clear communication. The lies and idiocy are tolerated only by those who recognize and associate with the real objective; asserting ones faith and attacking all its detractors like good little regurgitating minions...

Simple. For religious kooks, any Declaration of Faith trumps all rational dialogue.


Agreed. That is what I meant by "so called" Christians, but I should have been more clear. i have the utmost respect for thoughtful intelligent Christians. Likewise any ethnic / religious group. Why not? An idiot is an idioit wherever they are found, same with smart thoughtful people.
 
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Thomas Anderson

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Just a quick note here,too all concerned . I know that all will read it that have had some sort of comment about me cause this seems to be of great interest in your lifes.What is Misssster Anderson going to say now? In reading your comments it has been made clear that the reason you cant agree with anything I have to say, or you say I am not saying anything is simply because you dont agree. Well, generally I have the same feeling towards alot of your verbal diarhea.
One person states that I must be right thousands of learned scientists are wrong. Do all scientists agree on everything? Quite a few of them are wrong. I am guessing that you think the scientist I listen to are wrong. Funny I was thinking the same about yours. It has to do with evidence interpretation. They take a hypothesis and applied it and stretched it over the evidence that could be interpreted differently.
But I can see now by your posts that unless I adhere to what your scientists come up with then I am considered wrong, immature, out to lunch and so on.
I bring God and his inerrant Word into the discussion because thats what I KNOW to be the true creator of life. You people accept a materialistic explanation for life, I believe the supernatural is involved. Because you follow in the footsteps of the materialistic philosophers science then becomes synonymous with "materialistic explanations." Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for you cannot allow a divine foot in the door. If a person refuses to question Darwinism simply because it is the best naturalistic explanation available, even though the evidence is inconsistent with it, then that person is no longer engaged in the activity most people think of as science, namely, determining wether hypotheses fit the evidence.
As Phillip E. Johnson has pointed out, “Naturalism and empiricism are often erroneously assumed to be very nearly the same thing, but they are not. In case of Darwinism, these two foundational principles of science are in conflict.”
If you exclude the supernatural from science, then if the world or some phenomena within it are supernaturaly caused, as most of the world's people believe, you wont be able to reach the truth scientifically. You are placing hancuffs on when observing methodological naturalism thus preventing science from reaching what would be a tremendously important truth about the world. It might very well be that the result of this constriant would draw false conclusions to the best science in the long run.
Defenders of methodological naturalism (thats you people) are gonna tell me there cannot possibly be evidence for the supernatural causes. But the people who were inspired by ALL MIGHTY GOD and wrote His word claim otherwise. Who is right?What if a modern scientist were to find evidence that seems to point to a supernatural cause? Methodological naturalism would try there best to search for a natural cause. Under those circumstances then science would be prevented from following the evidence wherever it leads
If you restrict science to the natural, which I am sure you do, and assume that science can in principle get to all truth then that totally explains why I am such a thorn in your flesh. Yes I have been arrogant, childish judgemental and demeaning at times, and I apoligize for that . Especially sorry for my antichrist question to you Cabal. Just so you know Its nothing you said in your posts that changed my heart, but a little time with the Creator does wonders for the soul.

In closing, if you wont allow me to bring the supernatural into these debates that meaning "In the beginning (time) God(force) created(action) the heavens(space) and the earth'(matter) then I honestly have very little to debate. My beliefs and knowledge in science go hand in hand with my Creator. I believe most of you are very wrong on your science issues pertaining to you chance theory on evo, except for AV who I agree with and Cabal who I agree half with. Told you it was just a short note.

P.S. Life to the fullest. I am working on a reply to your post with the appendix and penguin stuff, Might be awhile and even though I know you wont accept it.I will try my best. Lot of cut and paste but when it comes to God, who created God. I will use His inerrant Word for that.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Thomas Anderson:
Ignoring the factual arguments made against your opinion in deference for ad hominems and mischaracterization of your opponent's views is no way to go through life, son.

I say we put Mr. Anderson on Double-Secret Probation!

17636-13443.gif
 
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Cabal

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Yes I have been arrogant, childish judgemental and demeaning at times, and I apoligize for that . Especially sorry for my antichrist question to you Cabal. Just so you know Its nothing you said in your posts that changed my heart, but a little time with the Creator does wonders for the soul.

Well, I'm glad you had a change of heart either way, apology accepted. :)
 
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Thomas Anderson

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I know this is abit long life to the fullest but one of many articles I read on penguins on the internet. I myself to be honest did not or could not have come up with this info from my own head (obviously) so I just c/p. I do believe it makes a number of valid points thou and one thing I do know is that intelligent design is carried out with intelligence far beyond ours. I will always be in awe when i consider design of every creature that crawls, walks, flys,hops,swims or what ever there uniquenesses permits them to do.And the more I see it the more I realize there has to be an intelligence behind it.. Chance cannot apply.
Amazing Design
Thermoregulation
Penguins have a remarkable capacity to regulate their body temperature despite the extreme external temperatures. Their unique overlapping feathers are highly specialized, providing good insulation, waterproofing, and wind resistance. The peculiar structure of the feathers provides extra thickness, and the complex network of blood vessels in their wings also helps the birds thermoregulate.
Molting
Penguins even have a unique molting pattern, retaining their old feathers until the new ones grow in. Their insulation and waterproofing are compromised during this time, so they must remain on land until their once-a-year molt is completed, lasting between 13 and 34 days, depending on the species.
Water movements
Penguins have three kinds of movement in water—surface swimming, porpoising, and underwater “flying.” Surface swimming is the least efficient. When swimming on the surface, the head is often the only part that is visible. The markings on the head facilitate sight recognition. Each species has its own distinctive pattern—a white patch on the crown, a brightly colored bill, or a crest. Since air resistance is less than water, porpoising out of the water at intervals increases the efficiency of a penguin’s swimming and possibly enables it to escape predators. But the penguin is most efficient when swimming underwater, which is really a form of underwater “flying,” accomplished with its unique wings.
Fascinating Features
Indeed, the most striking thing about penguins is their wings, “which are unlike the wings of any other bird. The difference between them and the wings of other birds is that they are designed to fly through the water. The elbow and wrist joints are fused and immobile, and the movement of the shoulder is limited, so that the bird must hang its wings by its sides rather than folding them over its back when it is at rest.”
The unique structural design of their wing bones enables penguins to be masters of underwater “flight.” In addition, their wing muscles are among the largest and strongest of any bird. Indeed, an adult emperor penguin is quite capable of breaking human leg bones with a single blow of its wing.
Tiny air bubbles cling to their feathers as they dive, significantly reducing the water’s drag on their bodies, making movement through the water energy efficient. Even their body shape contributes to this energy efficiency. Polar researcher Rudolf Bannasch stated that the penguin’s body is a natural torpedo, economical on fuel.
The unique characteristics we observe in penguins today—feather structure, form of molting, wing structure, and body shape—have no equal in the avian world. But have they always been this way? Evolutionary scientists tell us, “The penguins are descended from ancestors which had the power of flight, but their evolutionary energy has been concentrated on adaptation to an amphibious lifestyle.”To examine the plausibility of this statement, we need to examine the fossil record.
Penguin Fossils and True History
The first remains of a fossil penguin were found in New Zealand in 1859, and T. H. Huxley published the finding as Palaeeudyptes antarcticus. Del Hoyo comments, “This bone . . . shows the fusion of the tarsus and the metatarsus in a way peculiar to penguins,” indicating that penguins have not changed substantially over the millennia.

There are 21 genera and 32 species of extinct penguins now known to science. The fossils of penguins are found as low as the Eocene rocks, which creationist paleontologists believe were laid down after birds and land animals left the Ark and multiplied on the earth. From this evidence scientists conclude, “The late Eocene penguins were already completely incapable of aerial flight, fully adapted to aquatic flight and to upright, bipedal progression on land.”
In other words, we have no evidence that penguins were ever fliers or descended from birds capable of flight. They were apparently swimmers from the start, unrelated to any flying birds. Evolutionists themselves state that “no fossil has yet been found which sheds any light on these relationships.”
Indeed, all known fossil penguins reflect characteristics that are found in the six living genera of penguins. Their basic body form has not changed.
So where did penguins come from? The Bible tells us in Genisis 1; 10-22 that God created all sea creatures and birds on Day 5 of the Creation Week.
The ancestors of the penguins were created on Day 5. They are distinctly birds, even though there is no indication they ever flew “above the earth.” Like all other birds, for example, they have feathered wings and reproduce on land, distinguishing them from the “great sea creatures.” They also “fly” through the water, using a winged mechanism unlike any other swimming creature (i.e., marine mammals and fishes).
It is possible, given their unique characteristics that evidently have not changed over recorded time, that penguins comprise a distinct bird kind. Although we cannot be dogmatic about this, we can be dogmatic about the fact that the penguin design is a very good one!
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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I know this is abit long life to the fullest but one of many articles I read on penguins on the internet. I myself to be honest did not or could not have come up with this info from my own head (obviously) so I just c/p. I do believe it makes a number of valid points thou and one thing I do know is that intelligent design is carried out with intelligence far beyond ours. I will always be in awe when i consider design of every creature that crawls, walks, flys,hops,swims or what ever there uniquenesses permits them to do.And the more I see it the more I realize there has to be an intelligence behind it.. Chance cannot apply.
Amazing Design
Thermoregulation
Penguins have a remarkable capacity to regulate their body temperature despite the extreme external temperatures. Their unique overlapping feathers are highly specialized, providing good insulation, waterproofing, and wind resistance. The peculiar structure of the feathers provides extra thickness, and the complex network of blood vessels in their wings also helps the birds thermoregulate.
Molting
Penguins even have a unique molting pattern, retaining their old feathers until the new ones grow in. Their insulation and waterproofing are compromised during this time, so they must remain on land until their once-a-year molt is completed, lasting between 13 and 34 days, depending on the species.
Water movements
Penguins have three kinds of movement in water—surface swimming, porpoising, and underwater “flying.” Surface swimming is the least efficient. When swimming on the surface, the head is often the only part that is visible. The markings on the head facilitate sight recognition. Each species has its own distinctive pattern—a white patch on the crown, a brightly colored bill, or a crest. Since air resistance is less than water, porpoising out of the water at intervals increases the efficiency of a penguin’s swimming and possibly enables it to escape predators. But the penguin is most efficient when swimming underwater, which is really a form of underwater “flying,” accomplished with its unique wings.
Fascinating Features
Indeed, the most striking thing about penguins is their wings, “which are unlike the wings of any other bird. The difference between them and the wings of other birds is that they are designed to fly through the water. The elbow and wrist joints are fused and immobile, and the movement of the shoulder is limited, so that the bird must hang its wings by its sides rather than folding them over its back when it is at rest.”
The unique structural design of their wing bones enables penguins to be masters of underwater “flight.” In addition, their wing muscles are among the largest and strongest of any bird. Indeed, an adult emperor penguin is quite capable of breaking human leg bones with a single blow of its wing.
Tiny air bubbles cling to their feathers as they dive, significantly reducing the water’s drag on their bodies, making movement through the water energy efficient. Even their body shape contributes to this energy efficiency. Polar researcher Rudolf Bannasch stated that the penguin’s body is a natural torpedo, economical on fuel.
The unique characteristics we observe in penguins today—feather structure, form of molting, wing structure, and body shape—have no equal in the avian world. But have they always been this way? Evolutionary scientists tell us, “The penguins are descended from ancestors which had the power of flight, but their evolutionary energy has been concentrated on adaptation to an amphibious lifestyle.”To examine the plausibility of this statement, we need to examine the fossil record.
Penguin Fossils and True History
The first remains of a fossil penguin were found in New Zealand in 1859, and T. H. Huxley published the finding as Palaeeudyptes antarcticus. Del Hoyo comments, “This bone . . . shows the fusion of the tarsus and the metatarsus in a way peculiar to penguins,” indicating that penguins have not changed substantially over the millennia.

There are 21 genera and 32 species of extinct penguins now known to science. The fossils of penguins are found as low as the Eocene rocks, which creationist paleontologists believe were laid down after birds and land animals left the Ark and multiplied on the earth. From this evidence scientists conclude, “The late Eocene penguins were already completely incapable of aerial flight, fully adapted to aquatic flight and to upright, bipedal progression on land.”
In other words, we have no evidence that penguins were ever fliers or descended from birds capable of flight. They were apparently swimmers from the start, unrelated to any flying birds. Evolutionists themselves state that “no fossil has yet been found which sheds any light on these relationships.”
Indeed, all known fossil penguins reflect characteristics that are found in the six living genera of penguins. Their basic body form has not changed.
So where did penguins come from? The Bible tells us in Genisis 1; 10-22 that God created all sea creatures and birds on Day 5 of the Creation Week.
The ancestors of the penguins were created on Day 5. They are distinctly birds, even though there is no indication they ever flew “above the earth.” Like all other birds, for example, they have feathered wings and reproduce on land, distinguishing them from the “great sea creatures.” They also “fly” through the water, using a winged mechanism unlike any other swimming creature (i.e., marine mammals and fishes).
It is possible, given their unique characteristics that evidently have not changed over recorded time, that penguins comprise a distinct bird kind. Although we cannot be dogmatic about this, we can be dogmatic about the fact that the penguin design is a very good one!
Thank you for replying and keeping it to just one topic. Much appreciated. I look forward to a civil discusion with you.

I agree, penguins are well adapted (as opposed to desinged) to survive in their environment.

Penguins have exactly the same bone structure as birds that fly.

The fossil record alone (it becomes even more air tight if you want to throw in biogeography and molecular biology) supports the evolutionary history of penguins.

I have a question regarding your post. How did penguins make it to Antartica from modern day Turkey after the flood? And if they were designed to live in frigid and environmentally challenging conditions, how was it that they were able make it from the N. hemisphere to the S. Pole?

Your argument is one of personal incredulity. That is, you see the incredible biodiversity existing today (and this even after 99% of all species that have ever lived are extinct now, but I digress) and just cannot understand that natural processes that drive it. Therefore you appeal to a deity.

I agree with you regarding the complexity and intracies of what we see around us. It is truly amazing. I am inpsired and in awe by the mystery of it all. The improbability of me even existing, the fact that I am sitting here now typing, is mindblowing when I think about. Life is absolutely incredible, and I am glad to be here.

I patiently await your reply.

Peace
 
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Hespera

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With regard to "flying thru the water". There are a lot of birds that can fly thru the air AND the water. The Moneterey aquarium is a good place to watch birds flying about underwater. Very cool.

TA. here is something that would help the conversation.... tho i will stay out of it if this is to be between thomas and tothe.

"I do know is that intelligent design is carried out with intelligence far beyond ours. .....has to be an intelligence behind it.. Chance cannot apply." QUOTE, TA


No doubt that you believe this to be fact, but it is your opinion. it is not "fact' and you do not "know" it. Ok? i dont "know" that evolution is real.

I think a much better discussion results when people present evidence rather than in effect saying "i win" in the introductory paragraph.

Because, see, a very good case with plenty of evidence can be presented that these things did evolve on their own, no guiding hand at all.

If you have data and evidence to make counter arguments, then off we go. Otherwise it is all "is so is not" and hahahaha.

I think we all have one point we can agree on right from the first: we like penguins.
 
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Thomas Anderson

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I did not realize until after my last penguin post that Cabal had accepted my apology. Sorry I missed that. Thank you. Possibly an apology acceptance from Hespera too? If so thanks. And, no I don’t mind Hespera if you want to join in that’s fine. These debates are open to everyone I believe. It does however make me feel like I have to run a gauntlet. Say my piece and then prepare for the attack by all those sitting in the trenches.
Actually the reason "lttf" (life to the fullest) I posted the penguin material was because of your post questioning the design of a few things." Or maybe you can explain why a designer would give a penguin wings that don't work. " So the reason I opened with "Intelligent design is carried out with intelligence far beyond ours" is because that’s what I see. I know things about penguins I never knew before but it also shows me the innumerable variations in Gods designs. ToE possibly makes you see that every bird with wings should fly and if not then its poor design or the wings are vestige. You also said " Penguins have exactly the same bone structure as birds that fly.” That’s not totally true . Penguin wings are unlike the wings of any other bird. The difference between them and the wings of other birds is that they are designed to fly through the water. The elbow and wrist joints are fused and immobile, and the movement of the shoulder is limited, so that the bird must hang its wings by its sides rather than folding them over its back when it is at rest.” So I see specific design (not sure what believers in ToE see?) because I believe in a creator with an unreachable intelligence. There is no searching His understanding. And I see this not only in the penguins BUT ALL creatures big and small. There was a time I took it all for granted and never really gave it much thought but honestly once God came into the picture, in my life, I view things totally different.
You also said" The fossil record alone (it becomes even more air tight if you want to throw in biogeography and molecular biology) supports the evolutionary history of penguins." Just for the record I don’t think we will ever agree on the fossil record. There is another example where you’re seeing something and I am seeing something else. That’s a whole other topic.
Here is another whole other topic. You also said to me "Your argument is one of personal incredulity. “ I can throw that comment right back at you. Because I personally believe ToE is a faith, and I am not alone. It is not what you think you know about ToE that makes it a faith but what you don’t know. But we shouldn’t open that can of worms. I believe there is something like a trillion or more unanswered questions to ToE. and I am sure both you and I don’t have the time to hash them out. Plus most answers would just be theories because you are I were not there to witness it, one then can only assume. Just for an example one question would be the eye. How did it come about? And a half an eye just doesn’t work. And one would have to account for every creature as well. And two eyes at that. I actually have an answer from the Creator. Psalm 104:24 “Does he who planted the ear not hear? Does he that formed the eye, not see?” They knew about the awesomeness of the eye back then when they wrote this. By far, God creating the eye is the best explanation I have heard.. Really hard to believe any other possibilities. Now can you imagine the facts you would have to come up with to prove the transition of the eye through ToE never mind the brain? Life is far to short for those answers, no doubt.
But back to flightless birds or ratites. Because my point of view is different than yours, obviously, like the penguin I will see different reasons why it doesn't fly. The wings in flightless birds do have functions depending on the species some are: balance while running, cooling in hot weather, warmth in cold weather ,protection of the ribcage during falls, mating rituals, protection from bugs to the main body, scaring predators(emus will run at perceived enemies of their chicks, mouth open and wings flapping), sheltering of chicks, ect. The muscles also are functional allowing these birds to move their wings. If ToE were to deem the wings useless and they were to fall off of these flightless birds as ToE deemed our tail and I was then to look at these birds without wings. Then I would question a designer for sure. Actually if they had arms and hands, again, I would question a designer. As it is they all seem to get along fine without flight. Life goes on
 
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ragarth

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You also said " Penguins have exactly the same bone structure as birds that fly.” That’s not totally true . Penguin wings are unlike the wings of any other bird. The difference between them and the wings of other birds is that they are designed to fly through the water. The elbow and wrist joints are fused and immobile, and the movement of the shoulder is limited, so that the bird must hang its wings by its sides rather than folding them over its back when it is at rest.” So I see specific design (not sure what believers in ToE see?)

I rather enjoyed reading the information on penguins, thank you. They are neat animals, I really must get a couple pics of them to sketch. :D

Now the reason I cut out this piece is to highlight something: Notice you said that the wrist and elbow are fused, why? There are more efficient bone structures than fusing joints that previously existed in birds. Let's look at the structures:

http://www.people.eku.edu/ritchisong/554images/Penguin_wing2.jpg
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/images/bird_forelimbs.gif

Here we see that the penguin wing has roughly the same number of joints as other bird wings and a very similar approximate structure, but the medials are all shorter, thicker, and fused for greater strength. If we look at structures that didn't evolve from jointed assemblages like the human rib, we have a single, solid bone structure- this is superior for non-flexing assemblages, so why is the non-flexing assemblage of the penguin wing made of fused joints? Evolution explains this structure by stating that the fusing of the joints is a specialization to the animals environment- natural selection from a previously non-fused wing, whereas creationism would seem to dictate that this structure would not exist, since there are significantly superior structures for this particular purpose.
 
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Hespera

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I did not realize until after my last penguin post that Cabal had accepted my apology. Sorry I missed that. Thank you. Possibly an apology acceptance from Hespera too? If so thanks. And, no I don’t mind Hespera if you want to join in that’s fine. These debates are open to everyone I believe. It does however make me feel like I have to run a gauntlet. Say my piece and then prepare for the attack by all those sitting in the trenches.
Actually the reason "lttf" (life to the fullest) I posted the penguin material was because of your post questioning the design of a few things." Or maybe you can explain why a designer would give a penguin wings that don't work. " So the reason I opened with "Intelligent design is carried out with intelligence far beyond ours" is because that’s what I see. I know things about penguins I never knew before but it also shows me the innumerable variations in Gods designs. ToE possibly makes you see that every bird with wings should fly and if not then its poor design or the wings are vestige. You also said " Penguins have exactly the same bone structure as birds that fly.” That’s not totally true . Penguin wings are unlike the wings of any other bird. The difference between them and the wings of other birds is that they are designed to fly through the water. The elbow and wrist joints are fused and immobile, and the movement of the shoulder is limited, so that the bird must hang its wings by its sides rather than folding them over its back when it is at rest.” So I see specific design (not sure what believers in ToE see?) because I believe in a creator with an unreachable intelligence. There is no searching His understanding. And I see this not only in the penguins BUT ALL creatures big and small. There was a time I took it all for granted and never really gave it much thought but honestly once God came into the picture, in my life, I view things totally different.
You also said" The fossil record alone (it becomes even more air tight if you want to throw in biogeography and molecular biology) supports the evolutionary history of penguins." Just for the record I don’t think we will ever agree on the fossil record. There is another example where you’re seeing something and I am seeing something else. That’s a whole other topic.
Here is another whole other topic. You also said to me "Your argument is one of personal incredulity. “ I can throw that comment right back at you. Because I personally believe ToE is a faith, and I am not alone. It is not what you think you know about ToE that makes it a faith but what you don’t know. But we shouldn’t open that can of worms. I believe there is something like a trillion or more unanswered questions to ToE. and I am sure both you and I don’t have the time to hash them out. Plus most answers would just be theories because you are I were not there to witness it, one then can only assume. Just for an example one question would be the eye. How did it come about? And a half an eye just doesn’t work. And one would have to account for every creature as well. And two eyes at that. I actually have an answer from the Creator. Psalm 104:24 “Does he who planted the ear not hear? Does he that formed the eye, not see?” They knew about the awesomeness of the eye back then when they wrote this. By far, God creating the eye is the best explanation I have heard.. Really hard to believe any other possibilities. Now can you imagine the facts you would have to come up with to prove the transition of the eye through ToE never mind the brain? Life is far to short for those answers, no doubt.
But back to flightless birds or ratites. Because my point of view is different than yours, obviously, like the penguin I will see different reasons why it doesn't fly. The wings in flightless birds do have functions depending on the species some are: balance while running, cooling in hot weather, warmth in cold weather ,protection of the ribcage during falls, mating rituals, protection from bugs to the main body, scaring predators(emus will run at perceived enemies of their chicks, mouth open and wings flapping), sheltering of chicks, ect. The muscles also are functional allowing these birds to move their wings. If ToE were to deem the wings useless and they were to fall off of these flightless birds as ToE deemed our tail and I was then to look at these birds without wings. Then I would question a designer for sure. Actually if they had arms and hands, again, I would question a designer. As it is they all seem to get along fine without flight. Life goes on


Thanks but no need to apologize. I get intemperate too. The main thing is that you decided to go with a different approach.

As for attack, i dont care to do that, and if someone else does i will defend you.

A couple of general thoughts, about different approaches.

Dotn start out the idea that your being wrong about something is impossible!

As a student of science, I dont look at things that. I am, HAVE to always be, open to the idea that the final word is not out yet.

You too can be wrong about some things. I spotted several already. As I can show you!

You should skip any speech making; it kind of clogs the works.

Biology students already know stuff like what you posted about flightless birds, so no need for basics like that.

Also, we know very well what the nature of a theory is! And "were not there to witness" is not a valid objection! If it were, we would not bother to have detectives. We are well aware that evolution is a theory, but it has a vast backing of data, and, honestly, not one piece of contrary data, as we will proceed to show you one by one.

Why do you say that "evolution is a faith"? Please explain this.

Two more thoughts for now. Eye evolution... of course half an eye wont work. But.... sinngle cell animals are light sensitive, some utilizing "eye spots". There is a whole range of increasinly complex eyes from there on up.

And about penguin bones. The pigeons skeleton is also unique. Yours is.

However, chordates all have the same basic skeletal plan. You can match bone for bone. Some skeletal elements are deleted here and there, but the primary difference between say an elephant skeleton and yours is the size and proportion of the bones. The penguin skeleton matches that of a chicken! Certain bones are modified in their proportions, or may be fused,but this is universal among birds, mammals etc.

Do you have a particular point about penguin bones? Lets as you suggest in your post there, not let this get off into too many topics.
 
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atomweaver

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I did not realize until after my last penguin post that Cabal had accepted my apology. Sorry I missed that. Thank you. Possibly an apology acceptance from Hespera too? If so thanks. And, no I don’t mind Hespera if you want to join in that’s fine. These debates are open to everyone I believe. It does however make me feel like I have to run a gauntlet. Say my piece and then prepare for the attack by all those sitting in the trenches.

You will get multiple responses, as the topic is of interest to all. But its understandable that this is overwhelming if you try to reply to everyone. The common habit is to either choose a person to have a dialogue with, and stick with them, or to choose one or two from each round of responses to reply to. No one expects you to reply to everything, that'd be crazy to try...

Total aside, its usually good practice to include a link to whatever you cut-n-paste, like for your penguin info;

Penguins - Designed by God - Answers in Genesis

Which makes it clear from the off that you aren't citing scientific sources, but rather religious ones(the content does that as well, but its courteous to make it explicit), and gives the group the ability to peruse the whole of your source.


Actually the reason "lttf" (life to the fullest) I posted the penguin material was because of your post questioning the design of a few things."
Or maybe you can explain why a designer would give a penguin wings that don't work. " So the reason I opened with "Intelligent design is carried out with intelligence far beyond ours" is because that’s what I see. I know things about penguins I never knew before but it also shows me the innumerable variations in Gods designs. ToE possibly makes you see that every bird with wings should fly and if not then its poor design or the wings are vestige.


Well, not quite. What makes it vestige, and not design, is that the specific structure is what you would expect if the physiology were co-opted from a previous structure... co-opted structures imply descent with modification

You also said " Penguins have exactly the same bone structure as birds that fly.” That’s not totally true . Penguin wings are unlike the wings of any other bird. The difference between them and the wings of other birds is that they are designed to fly through the water. The elbow and wrist joints are fused and immobile, and the movement of the shoulder is limited, so that the bird must hang its wings by its sides rather than folding them over its back when it is at rest.” So I see specific design (not sure what believers in ToE see?) because I believe in a creator with an unreachable intelligence.
Its the fact that the penguin wing isn't just a straight appendage ofa single bone, but that it has a fused elbow, and a fused wrist. The simple concept of even having an elbow or a wrist in a penguin wing is what denies the action of a designer, and indicates a prior biological history with a working wrist and elbow. When we see physiological patterns like this, and use them to make predictions about what we will find in the future in the fossil record, we end up finding exactly what "descent with modification" would predict. Tiktaalik was discovered in a fashion similar to this. Major aspects of its physiology and geographical location were predicted by the application of evolutionary theory's effects on physiology, and then scientists trekked up to the Arctic Circle to look for, and ultimately find the fossil.
No intelligent designer working a physiology up "from scratch" would be so stupid, wasteful, and pointless as to put a fused wrist and elbow into a creature that makes no use for such things... especially not the infinitely wise, infinitely powerful designer implied when you promote ID from the point of view of a Christian Creationist. Put it differently, if biological structures were designed, then the designer is an imbecile. There are hundreds of thousands of middle school students who could devise a better design for a penguin wing in a weekend, and without access to either omnipotence or omniscience...

There is no searching His understanding.
That's a total cop-out. If a middle school kid is a better designer than Him, then He is no Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator of Everything...

And I see this not only in the penguins BUT ALL creatures big and small. There was a time I took it all for granted and never really gave it much thought but honestly once God came into the picture, in my life, I view things totally different.
That is that "God-shaped Hole" in yoru head which I mentioned earlier. I agree with you entirely here; you process information you come across within the context of your religious beliefs first. All other contexts are secondary.

Because I personally believe ToE is a faith, and I am not alone. It is not what you think you know about ToE that makes it a faith but what you don’t know.


What you don't know about ToE is greater than what he doesn't know... Of the two of you, who does that leave in a better position to decide ToE's validity?

But we shouldn’t open that can of worms.
Then don't open it, yourself...

I believe there is something like a trillion or more unanswered questions to ToE.
Great Ceasar's Ghost!!! A trillion???!!?!!!!! Gosh, that is a big number. Really big. Arbitrarily big. You made it up big... The number of unanswered questions has little to do with the validity of a theory. They are merely opportunities to refine the theory. You talk about unanswered questions as a way of ignoring the vast number of answered questions... I'll give you just one example of a question the ToE is ansering right now; Right now, Mister Anderson, the ToE is answering the question "what is next season's flu strain going to look like?" People accept the ToE enough to entrust the health of our young and infirm to it's predictions every flu season. And they aren't wrong in doing so. Its predictions saves thousands of lives...

and I am sure both you and I don’t have the time to hash them out. Plus most answers would just be theories because you are I were not there to witness it, one then can only assume.
I accept your concession that your position on creationism is mere assumption. ToE, however, has evidence...

Just for an example one question would be the eye. How did it come about? And a half an eye just doesn’t work. And one would have to account for every creature as well. And two eyes at that.
Just FYI, since your new to the discussion The creationist "how did the eye evolve/what good is half an eye?" has been asked and answered for decades. THe fact that you raise this as a supposed discussion point condemns any prior pretense you may have made towards actually having studied biological evolution.

Here's one frontpage link from a google search on "evolution AND eye";

Insight Into Eye Evolution Deals Blow To Intelligent Design

PBS has a decent response to the decades-old creationist eye canard, too;
Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye

I actually have an answer from the Creator. Psalm 104:24 “Does he who planted the ear not hear? Does he that formed the eye, not see?” They knew about the awesomeness of the eye back then when they wrote this. By far, God creating the eye is the best explanation I have heard..
Its an answer, but not an explanation... As with all other "Goddidits", it is an answer that has no power by which to offer any useful understanding of the eye, how it functions, why it does what it does. So Goddidit? Great. Tell me how does that answer help us treat Adult Macular Degeneration?

Really hard to believe any other possibilities.
I don't doubt that you find that to be the case...

Now can you imagine the facts you would have to come up with to prove the transition of the eye through ToE never mind the brain? Life is far to short for those answers, no doubt.
Life is not that short at all, if you are curious enough about the topic, you'll find the time to learn the answers... I've learned very quickly though, that the creationist is jsut about the least curious out of all the great apes...

But back to flightless birds or ratites. Because my point of view is different than yours, obviously, like the penguin I will see different reasons why it doesn't fly. The wings in flightless birds do have functions depending on the species some are: balance while running, cooling in hot weather, warmth in cold weather ,protection of the ribcage during falls, mating rituals, protection from bugs to the main body, scaring predators(emus will run at perceived enemies of their chicks, mouth open and wings flapping), sheltering of chicks, ect.


You forgot a very important one for the penguin; swimming.

The muscles also are functional allowing these birds to move their wings. If ToE were to deem the wings useless
But they aren't useless. They're useless for flight, but as your excellent little list makes clear, they aren't useless. Also, in order for ToE to predict that a structure be totally lost, they'd have to be not only useless, but a liability to the organism. Penguin wings are neither...

and they were to fall off of these flightless birds as ToE deemed
ToE doesn't "deem". As shown, you are very bad at being able to figure out what the ToE predicts... This is because you've never been properly educated on the subject, and perhaps you never will. Its interesting to me that you then somehow feel you are in a position to tell people who use the ToE in their daily jobs that they are Oh, So wrong.
If the ToE is wrong, why did it correctly predict the existence of a fossil with features
intermediate between fish and amphibian, and that it would be found in the Arctic Circle? If the ToE is wrong, why do millions get flu vacceines every year, made on the ToE's predictions of what the flu viurs is going to become in the coming winter months? If the ToE is wrong, why does every cell of your body contain genetic data of orthologous ERVs with Chimps and other Apes in just such a fashion as to suggest that you and they share a very ancient common ancestry? Why does the fossil record show data that conforms so tightly to the timeline of that ancestry implied in your genes?

You think that ToE has a trillion unanswered questions? Maybe. But, it has the explanatory power to attempt an explanation for each question. "Goddidit" fails to explain in any detail the function or mechanism of, well... anything.


Have a great day, Mister Anderson. I'm genuinely glad to see you are capable of something other than hyperbole.
 
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Thomas Anderson

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Now what use would pigs have for pearls?

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6).

Of course, these words of Jesus are allegorical. I doubt that any were literally casting pearls before swine. The meaning is pretty simple to figure out; "Do not persist in offering what is sacred or of value to those who have no appreciation for it, because your gift will not only become contaminated and be despised, your generous efforts could also be rebuffed and perhaps even openly attacked."

The "dogs" and "swine" here stand for the unappreciative and worldly; unappreciative and uncaring men and women who belittle the value of what is offered to them. "That which is holy" would be the meat offered in sacrifice to God. A dog could care less whether it came from the altar or the garbage. The swine have no appreciation for either the beauty nor the value of the pearls under their feet.

Your life, time, energy, opportunities and abilities are God's pearls. They're His! You and I are merely His stewards overseeing His possessions (1 Corinthians 6:19,20; 4:1,2; 1 Peter 4:8-11). We must show discernment as to what use we make of God's possessions. It is possible to waste them either by using them when we should not as well as not using them when we should.
Mighty is the sword that draws blood! Mightier is the pen that draws ink! Mightiest is the tongue that draws ears!
James 3; 1-5
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! ...
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every TONGUE that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness which is of me, saith Jehovah. Isaiah 54:17
For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; Their inward part is very wicked; Their throat is an open sepulchre; They flatter with their TONGUE.Psalms 5:9
Who have said, With our TONGUE will we prevail; Our lips are our own: who is lord over us? Psalms 12:4
Who have whet their TONGUE like a sword, And have aimed their arrows, even bitter words,Psalms 64:3
They have sharpened their TONGUE like a serpent; Adders` poison is under their lips. Selah Psalms 140:3
The TONGUE of the wise uttereth knowledge aright; But the mouth of fools poureth out folly.Proverbs 15:2
Death and life are in the power of the TONGUE; And they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.Proverbs 18:21
The north wind bringeth forth rain: So doth a backbiting TONGUE an angry countenance.Proverbs 25:23
He that rebuketh a man shall afterward find more favor Than he that flattereth with the TONGUE.Proverbs 28:23
And they bend their TONGUE, [as it were] their bow, for falsehood; and they are grown strong in the land, but not for truth: for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith Jehovah. Jeremiah 9:3

It is shameful that we remember great generals, conquerors, and conductors of war, yet forget the likes of William Wilberforce, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Junior

Isaiah 40:28 “Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”

Anyone believing that God made the human body perfect; has not experienced a toothache
Dont forget to floss.

I have no more time for this: plant seeds, water them, and God will cause them to grow. Have a good life all. Thomas Anderson sighning off

 
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Hespera

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You will get multiple responses, as the topic is of interest to all. But its understandable that this is overwhelming is you try to reply to everyone. The common habit is to either choose a person to have a dialogue with, and stick with them, or to choose one or two from each round of responses to reply to. No one expects you to reply to everything, that'd be crazy to try...

Total aside, its usually good practice to include a link to whatever you cut-n-paste, like for your penguin info;

Penguins - Designed by God - Answers in Genesis

Which makes it clear from the off that you aren't citing scientific sources, but rather religious ones(the content does that as well, but its courteous to make it explicit), and gives the group the ability to peruse the whole of your source.




Well, not quite. What makes it vestige, and not design, is that the specific structure is what you would expect if the physiology were co-opted from a previous structure... co-opted structures imply descent with modification

Its the fact that the penguin wing isn't just a straight appendage ofa single bone, but that it has a fused elbow, and a fused wrist. The simple concept of even having an elbow or a wrist in a penguin wing is what denies the action of a designer, and indicates a prior biological history with a working wrist and elbow. When we see physiological patterns like this, and use them to make predictions about what we will find in the future in the fossil record, we end up finding exactly what "descent with modification" would predict. Tiktaalik was discovered in a fashion similar to this. Major aspects of its physiology and geographical location were predicted by the application of evolutionary theory's effects on physiology, and then scientists trekked up to the Arctic Circle to look for, and ultimately find the fossil.
No intelligent designer working a physiology up "from scratch" would be so stupid, wasteful, and pointless as to put a fused wrist and elbow into a creature that makes no use for such things... especially not the infinitely wise, infinitely powerful designer implied when you promote ID from the point of view of a Christian Creationist. Put it differently, if biological structures were designed, then the designer is an imbecile. There are hundreds of thousands of middle school students who could devise a better design for a penguin wing in a weekend, and without access to either omnipotence or omniscience...

That's a total cop-out. If a middle school kid is a better designer than Him, then He is no Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator of Everything...

That is that "God-shaped Hole" in yoru head which I mentioned earlier. I agree with you entirely here; you process information you come across within the context of your religious beliefs first. All other contexts are secondary.



What you don't know about ToE is greater than what he doesn't know... Of the two of you, who does that leave in a better position to decide ToE's validity?

Then don't open it, yourself...

Great Ceasar's Ghost!!! A trillion???!!?!!!!! Gosh, that is a big number. Really big. Arbitrarily big. You made it up big... The number of unanswered questions has little to do with the validity of a theory. They are merely opportunities to refine the theory. You talk about unanswered questions as a way of ignoring the vast number of answered questions... I'll give you just one example of a question the ToE is ansering right now; Right now, Mister Anderson, the ToE is answering the question "what is next season's flu strain going to look like?" People accept the ToE enough to entrust the health of our young and infirm to it's predictions every flu season. And they aren't wrong in doing so. Its predictions saves thousands of lives...

I accept your concession that your position on creationism is mere assumption. ToE, however, has evidence...

Just FYI, since your new to the discussion The creationist "how did the eye evolve/what good is half an eye?" has been asked and answered for decades. THe fact that you raise this as a supposed discussion point condemns any prior pretense you may have made towards actually having studied biological evolution.

Here's one frontpage link from a google search on "evolution AND eye";

Insight Into Eye Evolution Deals Blow To Intelligent Design

PBS has a decent response to the decades-old creationist eye canard, too;
Evolution: Library: Evolution of the Eye

Its an answer, but not an explanation... As with all other "Goddidits", it is an answer that has no power by which to offer any useful understanding of the eye, how it functions, why it does what it does. So Goddidit? Great. Tell me how does that answer help us treat Adult Macular Degeneration?

I don't doubt that you find that to be the case...

Life is not that short at all, if you are curious enough about the topic, you'll find the time to learn the answers... I've learned very quickly though, that the creationist is jsut about the least curious out of all the great apes...



You forgot a very important one for the penguin; swimming.

But they aren't useless. They're useless for flight, but as your excellent little list makes clear, they aren't useless. Also, in order for ToE to predict that a structure be totally lost, they'd have to be not only useless, but a liability to the organism. Penguin wings are neither...

ToE doesn't "deem". As shown, you are very bad at being able to figure out what the ToE predicts... This is because you've never been properly educated on the subject, and perhaps you never will. Its interesting to me that you then somehow feel you are in a position to tell people who use the ToE in their daily jobs that they are Oh, So wrong.
If the ToE is wrong, why did it correctly predict the existence of a fossil with features
intermediate between fish and amphibian, and that it would be found in the Arctic Circle? If the ToE is wrong, why do millions get flu vacceines every year, made on the ToE's predictions of what the flu viurs is going to become in the coming winter months? If the ToE is wrong, why does every cell of your body contain genetic data of orthologous ERVs with Chimps and other Apes in just such a fashion as to suggest that you and they share a very ancient common ancestry? Why does the fossil record show data that conforms so tightly to the timeline of that ancestry implied in your genes?

You think that ToE has a trillion unanswered questions? Maybe. But, it has the explanatory power to attempt an explanation for each question. "Goddidit" fails to explain in any detail the function or mechanism of, well... anything.


Have a great day, Mister Anderson. I'm genuinely glad to see you are capable of something other than hyperbole.



Agree with everything you say, atom, but................

Thomas! be sure you just bring up one topic at a time.
Otherwise we end up like the Platte river was (at least before it dried up)
which is a mile wide and an inch deep.
 
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