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Would like to obaint more accurate information on these saints.

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127.0.0.1

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Here's a reasoned response to Boswell's claims that the rite was in any way sexual.

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9411/articles/darling.html

Did you read the link I just posted? This is the exact article it refutes.

As for the rite, I though this site rite here did a pretty good job of explaining it.

>Link removed<

Also, I found a really interesting article on how the rite is used as a sort of same-sex-union in Albania.

>Link removed<
(Warning, I recommend you sue FireFox with NoScript installed when viewing this page).

Also, has anyone here heard of AXIOS? I was pretty surprised the first time I saw the site myself but anyone here it is:

>Link removed<
What do you think? Personally I'm a little doubtful that they're still around...organizes are supposed to update their main sites. None the less, you can still browse some neat stuff.

Here's something interesting:
http://www.eskimo.com/~nickz/qrd-eastern_orthodox/adelph.opoiia
>Link removed<
Here's a really in depth article, it goes into a lot of detail.

>Link removed<
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976780156
I'd be interested in hearing exactly how these articles get it wrong. I know I though the second article seemed really interesting, it goes on to claim from an interview with an Albanian that the rite is indeed a same-sex-union. So please, let me know your thoughts on these articles. I happen to think the last one on there goes really in depth, so I highly recommend at least glancing through it. Please be sure to let me know what you think about them.
 
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ThePilgrim

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Look... You come here and talk about how you always thought that lesbianism was okay, because it "was hot." Do you really expect us to discuss this in detail to you, explaining the position of the Orthodox Church on homosexual behavior and women's ordination?

Grace and peace,
John
 
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fuerein

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Yes I did read it, and unfortunately I did not realize that the link I posted the same the article was 'refuting' until awhile after I posted. For that I am sorry. Though honestly if that was a refutation, it was horribly done. It consisted largely statements that were little more of "well, thats debatable", "no, she's wrong", "that's precisely the point" without actually offering any substantial true refutations with evidence.

As I said, sorry for posting something that was directly 'refuted' by your posting. Here though is another article that basically confirms the argument doesn't really hold snuff.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/bosrev-wilken.html
 
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127.0.0.1

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Yes I did read it, and unfortunately I did not realize that the link I posted the same the article was 'refuting' until awhile after I posted. For that I am sorry.
That's OK
Though honestly if that was a refutation, it was horribly done. It consisted largely statements that were little more of "well, thats debatable", "no, she's wrong", "that's precisely the point" without actually offering any substantial true refutations with evidence.

As I said, sorry for posting something that was directly 'refuted' by your posting. Here though is another article that basically confirms the argument doesn't really hold snuff.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/bosrev-wilken.html
OK thanks for the article will give it a read through.

Look... You come here and talk about how you always thought that lesbianism was okay, because it "was hot."
I'll admit that was a really doumb thing of my to say and I'm sorry.
Do you really expect us to discuss this in detail to you, explaining the position of the Orthodox Church on homosexual behavior and women's ordination?

Grace and peace,
John

I was kind of hoping, but as I see where this is going and I am not interesting in going down that path again...I do apologize and take my leave.
 
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ThePilgrim

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Command,

Peace. I admire your thirst to learn and also your willingness to admit when words were not wisely chosen.

In terms of your central questions, homosexual relationships and the ordination of women to the priesthood, I would respond as follows.

Homosexuality:

You said before in a different thread that if people are born with same-sex attraction, then you didn't see how it could possibly be wrong. Since all of us are born in a fallen state, we are all of us beset from our youth up with many passions that are sinful. One of the main focuses of Orthodoxy and especially of the ascetical tradition within Orthodoxy is helping us to overcome our passions so that we can be fully alive in Christ, since our passions are distortions of our natural, God-given impulses.

Some people, from childhood on up, have more of a tendency towards anger than others. That doesn't give them license or excuse to act angrily towards others. They must, by God's grace and with the help of a wise spiritual father and the Sacred Mysteries of the Church, learn to control that disordered anger and turn it into "the anger that is accordance with nature," (as St. Evagrios says) that is, anger at one's own sins and the snares of the Devil, a natural anger that everything within ourselves that draws us away from God.

So also, the fact that a person may feel same-sex attraction all their lives does not mean that those actions are not sinful for them. All of our desires can and often are disordered, so the existence of a desire does not prove the righteousness of that desire. Sexual love is something created by God, but created by Him for a purpose and with a specific outlet. That outlet is the married life between a man and a woman.

The Scriptures are full of examples of this love, starting from where the Scriptures say that God created us male and female, in the Image and Likeness of God, and told us to be fruitful and multiply. Also, throughout the Epistles, there is much discussion of the beautiful love between a man and his wife, a mystery that St. Paul says is an image of Christ and the Church.

Nowhere do the Scriptures speak of or approve of same-sex sexual love. Nor also does Church Tradition. As the one article points out, at the same time that these services "For the making of brothers" were being used, there were canons dealing with the sin of same-gender intimacy, and dealing with what Church penalties applied. The Church would not bless in Her services what she forbids in Her laws.

That doesn't mean that people with same-sex attraction have it easy. I'm sure many of them have it very hard, and we should pray for them. I have a friend who struggles with that kind of temptation, but who realizes that he is thus called to celibacy, and to turn his love into love for the whole world and all of God's creation. He is looking into pursuing a monastic life.

While people with same-sex attraction have a great cross to bear, in one way or another, all of us struggle with different sins and passions, and all of us are called to deal with them. God and my confessor know I have my struggles, most often with pride, laziness, lust, greed, eating too much or without reason, failing to help the poor, failing to be disciplined in my prayers, and a rather long list of other sins. Each of us struggles, but all of us must continue to beseech God's help and get up and try again. The same is true for homosexuals. They are no worse than we are, and we are no better than they are, and indeed, many of us are worse.

But, while the Church must deal compassionately with sinners, the Church cannot bless or condone sin. The difference is vast and important. To condone sin is to hate the sinner, because, as the Psalms teach us, "he who loves unrighteousness hates his own soul."

We must all remember the coming Judgment and turn to Christ to be healed.

In terms of the ancient rites for making brothers, as the one article points out, this is an ancient practice, both inside and outside of Christianity, but those participating in it were most often either married or celibate monastics. That alone should tell you that the purpose of the rite wasn't blessing a same-sex, sexual relationship.

Women's ordination:

I can understand your desire for what you call "equal rights." At the root of it, you seem concerned for righteousness and justice. You want all people to be treated equally and no one to suffer unfairly for something beyond their control.

However, equality doesn't mean being the same. It is possible for two people to be equal without them having exactly the same lives, choices, or opportunities. Men, for example, can never give birth. I've heard from many people that, although it's painful, giving birth to a new life is an amazing experience and that the bonding is incredible. Does the fact that we cannot give birth mean that we don't have equality with women? Is one of us biologically inferior and the other biologically superior, or do we simply have different biological roles? Since God created our bodies, any issue of inferiority or superiority you see in our bodies would be something you'd have to take issue with God about.

However, I think you'll agree, that while different in their roles, our bodies as men and women are of equal value before God, and that what each of us can or can't do is important.

So also, the fact that women are barred from the priesthood in Orthodoxy does not necessarily mean that they are inferior to men, or that they lack equality. All it necessarily means is that some men (a small minority) have a certain role that no women have or can have. Many women have a role (motherhood) that no man can ever have. There are also many, many roles in life that are open to both men and women.

But why stop at the division between men and women? There are many other ways of dividing people. Some people are more intelligent than others and good at book learning, while others are not. Some people are skillful artists, able to depict masterfully the many wonders God has created. Others, like myself, can't draw a stick figure that doesn't look like it's suffering from some unfortunate deformity. All of us have different gifts and different ways that we can serve God. Does that mean that we are inherently unequal?

St. Paul speaks of this when he says that we are all members of the same body, but do not all have the same function within that body. While we don't all have the same function, all of us are important to the functioning of the body as a whole. The ordained priesthood within the Church does not somehow make someone better, more holy, or more privileged than others. In fact, the Holy Fathers are clear that priest and bishops will be judged more strictly than others, and St. John Chrysostom says that the road to Hell is strewn with the skulls of bad bishops.

So the fact that women cannot be ordained to the priesthood does not mean that they are of lesser value. But how, you might ask, do we know that they can't be?

For this, we have Holy Tradition. At the beginning of the Church, Christ selected and ordained twelve male apostles, who in term ordained men to succeed them as bishops and priests, never once ordaining women to those roles.

You might say, however, that Christ was acting according to the social norms of 1st Century Judaism. However, Christ act with sinners and tax collectors, rebuked the Pharisees and High Priests, and always acted righteously and justly, regardless of social customs (if they were sinful). To say that Christ was merely following a sinful custom is to insult Christ.

And besides... Christianity quickly spread beyond the borders of Israel to many areas where it was common to see women in religious roles, as priestesses or oracles. If the all-male priesthood was merely a local custom, the God-inspired Apostles and their successors would have ordained women to these roles in places where it was common to do so. However, Christianity went *against* these norms in maintaining an all male-priesthood.

All of us, though many, are one body in Christ, all of us with our own ways of serving Christ and each other.

I'm sorry for when I've answered you angrily in the past. I hope that this reply is more helpful to you. Pray for me a sinner.

Grace and peace,
John
 
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buzuxi02

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I see. So you're saying that the adelphopoesis rite is a way to adopt someone as a sibling then? Where did you hear that? That's not what I heard...
>Link removed<
PS
I have to agree with you on what you say about Western culture being unable accept platonic love and labeling things as "gay".
This is correct, thats why its called "brother-making". If it were some gay union ceremony then based on the name of this defunct service , the Church tolerates incest!

This service also makes mention of Sts Peter and Paul whose Orthodox icon is known as the 'embrace'. This icon depicts Peter and Paul "kissing and making up" after they settled their quarrels on the issue of judaizing amongst the gentiles.

From this example we can see why this service spoke about attaining a love free of jealousy and scandal. Because the bickering between Paul and Peter was precisely that! A scandal and a jealous rivalry between two apostles (Gal 2.11-15) that was overcome. Likewise Bacchus and Sergius caused scandal not because they were closet homosexuals but for being closet christians that were outed and humiliated.
But to prove this service had nothing to do with gay unions lets take one verse from this very service:

".... Who did deem it meet that the Holy Apostles Phillip and Bartholomew (aka Nathaniel) be united, bound one unto the other, NOT by nature but by faith and spirit ..."

There is not a shred of any evidence that Phillip and Bartholomew were gay, only that the synoptics\ gospels group these two apostles together as a pair in the order of disciples (Matt 10.3) as is done with the other disciples. Also in John 1.43-48 its revealed that Jesus found and appointed Phillip as a disciple and Phillip found Bartholomew introducing him to Jesus.

Just to leave no stone unturned lets turn to the canons which speak of homosexuality and marriage, and what is meant by 'nature' in the church- as it pertains to our subject matter:

The sin of Sodom is contrary to nature...... The two shall become one flesh. For the husband and wfe are one in nature, in consent, in union, in disposition and the conduct of life. However they are sperated in sex and number." -Apostolic Constitutions 390 a.d.

There are dozens and dozens of canons relating to sexuaL morality and marriage, and not one suggests that homsexual unions ever existed, nor is there any canon which even gives the suggestion that it condones same sex unions.

St John Chrysostom wrote in 405 a.d:

"There are two reasons for why marriage is established... To cause the man to be satisfied with one single wife and to give him children, but it is the first which is the most important."

St John Chrysostom is one of the few Fathers that equated marriage with sexual love (most thought sexual pleasure was wrong), i'm sure he would of made atleast one reference to gay unions if they existed.
 
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