Would God forgive a murderer who refuses to turn himself in?

[mcart909]

Let's say I murder a person. I am genuinely sorry, and ask God to forgive me. Is God's forgiveness contingent on me turning myself in and facing the State-sanctioned consequences for my actions? What are people's thoughts on this?

 

[stivvy]

IMHO, yes it would be. It isn't just about being sorry to God for it, but to do right again.

More sins are bing commited if you wouldn't come forward because you are causing heartache to the victims family, causing for fear in public that a killer is still out there, and possibly causing for someone else being accused or even condemed for the killing that they didn't do it.

How do you resolve that those sins are not on your baptismal robe? Take public responsibility.

 

[Foundthelight]

Let's say I murder a person. I am genuinely sorry, and ask God to forgive me. Is God's forgiveness contingent on me turning myself in and facing the State-sanctioned consequences for my actions? What are people's thoughts on this?

This logic is a little circuitous. Please bear with me.

Of course you can be forgiven for murder by God. Look at King David who was as guilty as any for maneuvering to cause the death of Bathsheba's husband.

The question is whether or not it is a sin to not turn ones self in.
If it is a sin and you deny that, then you are not forgiven.

If governments are, indeed, ordained by God to rule over us, then failure to obey the laws is, in effect, a sin against God. The U.S. government, in its God ordained wisdom, has decided that we have a right to not incriminate ourselves. If we turn ourselves in we are definitely incriminating ourselves. We, therefore are not required to turn ourselves in, and thus are not sinning.

If our government said that we had to incriminate ourselves then I would say otherwise.

 

[stivvy]

This logic is a little circuitous. Please bear with me.

Of course you can be forgiven for murder by God. Look at King David who was as guilty as any for maneuvering to cause the death of Bathsheba's husband.

The question is whether or not it is a sin to not turn ones self in.
If it is a sin and you deny that, then you are not forgiven.

If governments are, indeed, ordained by God to rule over us, then failure to obey the laws is, in effect, a sin against God. The U.S. government, in its God ordained wisdom, has decided that we have a right to not incriminate ourselves. If we turn ourselves in we are definitely incriminating ourselves. We, therefore are not required to turn ourselves in, and thus are not sinning.

If our government said that we had to incriminate ourselves then I would say otherwise.

I do not agree that it isn't a sin under your logic. The government is only as good as the job it does for its citizens. If one has no law to protect the citizens against a killer on the loose, then it is in violation of the law and the love of God for His people.

By causing the grief and the continued heartache and the burden on an innocent society, the sin is being inflated and every minute that goes by and for every life touched by the original sin commited, there will have to be accountability of that sinner.

The governments requirements have no being over God's laws and justice. God may bless officials with wisdom and leadership qualities, but free will drives the man and the day to day governing will come from the free will. It is up to the man himself to follow his free will or govern under the Holy Spirit's guidence.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Let's say I murder a person. I am genuinely sorry, and ask God to forgive me. Is God's forgiveness contingent on me turning myself in and facing the State-sanctioned consequences for my actions? What are people's thoughts on this?

We are called to do our penance on earth.

If we ask, I am sure we are forgiven, yet we will suffer the consequences in the second life when God expiates us of our sins and fleshly hold we have with our sins...

In purgatory.
The greater the crime that was left without penance on earth, the longer in purgation.

Other than that, I am not God so I will not surmise to know all of it. Just what has been taught.

The Apostles taught penance.

Peace!

 

[BAFRIEND]

We are called to do our penance on earth.

If we ask, I am sure we are forgiven, yet we will suffer the consequences in the second life when God expiates us of our sins and fleshly hold we have with our sins...

In purgatory.
The greater the crime that was left without penance on earth, the longer in purgation.

Other than that, I am not God so I will not surmise to know all of it. Just what has been taught.

The Apostles taught penance.

Peace!

I believe I read, that in the case of going to Cofession, the Priest has to be certain the murderer is handling the victims responsibilities in regards to minor children being supported or the bills being paid by the murderer. Otherwise, it is considered that the sin is on going. Therefore the Priest will not exonerate or offer penance.

 

[BillH]

If governments are, indeed, ordained by God to rule over us, then failure to obey the laws is, in effect, a sin against God. The U.S. government, in its God ordained wisdom, has decided that we have a right to not incriminate ourselves. If we turn ourselves in we are definitely incriminating ourselves. We, therefore are not required to turn ourselves in, and thus are not sinning.

If our government said that we had to incriminate ourselves then I would say otherwise.

This is confusing what is legal with what is moral. There are any number of things that are legal (to take an extreme example, let's say abortion) that are sinful.

In any event, it is not illegal to incriminate yourself. Lots of people plead guilty to charges against themselves. It is only illegal to be compelled to incriminate yourself.

 

[Foundthelight]

This is confusing what is legal with what is moral. There are any number of things that are legal (to take an extreme example, let's say abortion) that are sinful.

In any event, it is not illegal to incriminate yourself. Lots of people plead guilty to charges against themselves. It is only illegal to be compelled to incriminate yourself.

I didn't say that it was illegal to incriminate oneself. I said that it is legal not to incriminate oneself.

 

[Look Homeward Anglican]

If a priest makes it contingent, it's contingent. "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven..." comes to mind.
There it is, then.

 

[hsilgne]

Let's say I murder a person. I am genuinely sorry, and ask God to forgive me. Is God's forgiveness contingent on me turning myself in and facing the State-sanctioned consequences for my actions? What are people's thoughts on this?

God is willing to forgive every sin ever committed. That is what Jesus shed blood does for us. His blood atones every sin. The question therefore should not be directed at God, but should be directed at the sinner, since the only sin that God does not forgive is the unrepented sin - or in other words, "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".

In Christ

 

[BAFRIEND]

God is willing to forgive every sin ever committed. That is what Jesus shed blood does for us. His blood atones every sin. The question therefore should not be directed at God, but should be directed at the sinner, since the only sin that God does not forgive is the unrepented sin - or in other words, "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".

In Christ

I think if you are truely sorry, then that genuine sorrow would lead to one owning up. Not necessarily turning yourself in, but caring for the responsibilities of the victim, otherwise, neglecting to do so would mean being in perpetual sin, ie unable to obtain the state of grace because the sin continues.

There is a difference between repenting and feeling guilty.

I think if you cannot forgive yourself, due to the consequences and loose ends, it is a very strong signal that the requirements for repentence have not been met. Otherwise, it just smacks of protestant relativism.

 

[hsilgne]

I think if you are truely sorry, then that genuine sorrow would lead to one owning up. Not necessarily turning yourself in, but caring for the responsibilities of the victim, otherwise, neglecting to do so would mean being in perpetual sin, ie unable to obtain the state of grace because the sin continues.

There is a difference between repenting and feeling guilty.

I think if you cannot forgive yourself, due to the consequences and loose ends, it is a very strong signal that the requirements for repentence have not been met. Otherwise, it just smacks of protestant relativism.

I completely agree with this....

that said, just because our perspective see's a persons actions as unrepentive, does not mean that God does. In other words, only God knows a mans heart.

 

[Foundthelight]

oops!

 

[Foundthelight]

If we didn't have the death penalty I might think differently about turning oneself in. The presence of the death penalty clouds my judgement in this matter.

The murderer should do whatever the priest says.

 

[stivvy]

So, allow the sins to continue and build and ruin many more lives?

 

[PetertheRock]

Remeber when the THIEF was hanging on the cross with Jesus. He was being executed for being a thief. Jesus did not say his punishment was wrong. The thief said their punishment was just. They were getting what they deserved. Jesus said the thief would be with him in paradise this day.

So whether or not the punishment is death or prison, you must pay the price for your crime if you are truly sorry.

 

[Foundthelight]

So, allow the sins to continue and build and ruin many more lives?

You misunderstand me.

Whatever the priest says to do for penance, do. That may include turning oneself in. Depending on the circumstances it may not.

The motive of most victims is for vengeance, not for things such as; reparations, support of survivors, or an opportunity for that most difficult of things, forgiveness.

If you think turning yourself in is an opportunity for any of those, except possibly forgiveness, you are mistaken. But, if the priest thinks it appropriate to turn oneself in, you must do so.

Vengeance is an ugly thing. It involves and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a death for a death. How many lives has the desire for vengeance ruined?

What if the act was murder under the law but is justified on moral grounds? What if I murdered a Hitler or Stalin to stop their reprehensible acts? Should I then turn myself in? Would I have sinned in not doing so?

Each case must be heard by the priest in confession and a decision made as what to do. He will decide where the greater good lays.

For those who do not have the Catholic Church, they must pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.






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[BAFRIEND]

You misunderstand me.

Whatever the priest says to do for penance, do. That may include turning oneself in. Depending on the circumstances it may not.

The motive of most victims is for vengeance, not for things such as; reparations, support of survivors, or an opportunity for that most difficult of things, forgiveness.

If you think turning yourself in is an opportunity for any of those, except possibly forgiveness, you are mistaken. But, if the priest thinks it appropriate to turn oneself in, you must do so.

Vengeance is an ugly thing. It involves and eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a death for a death. How many lives has the desire for vengeance ruined?

What if the act was murder under the law but is justified on moral grounds? What if I murdered a Hitler or Stalin to stop their reprehensible acts? Should I then turn myself in? Would I have sinned in not doing so?

Each case must be heard by the priest in confession and a decision made as what to do. He will decide where the greater good lays.

For those who do not have the Catholic Church, they must pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.






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I was listening to a Priest on Catholic radio a couple days ago, he stated that the priest may not ask someone to turn themselves in to the authorities.

 

[helenofbritain]

I was listening to a Priest on Catholic radio a couple days ago, he stated that the priest may not ask someone to turn themselves in to the authorities.

Are you sure? I mean, was _he_sure? I'd have thought priests could _ask_whatever they liked, but it would be up to the guilty party as to what they did. Seal-of-confession-wise, my understanding is priests can't say anything themselves, _unless_ they are very convinced some terrible crime is going to be committed again. But as a general rule, they are not compellable.

 

[helenofbritain]

Foundthelight said: What if the act was murder under the law but is justified on moral grounds? What if I murdered a Hitler or Stalin to stop their reprehensible acts? Should I then turn myself in? Would I have sinned in not doing so?

The Church teaches that the ends never justify the means. Never. Two wrongs to not make a right.

I think the issue here is less about forgiveness, and more about repentance. God will forgive us, if we are truly sorry for our sins. If we are truly sorry for murdering someone, we will accept the consequences of our actions - eg, pleading guilty and being sentenced. Being in Australia, where we are not so uncivilised as to still have the death penalty, your observation about handing yourself over if you knew you'd probably be executed gave me pause for a moment - but if that is the penalty for murder where you live, then you need to accept that. While I do not think the death penalty is at all just, neither is murdering another human being. I'm also not into an eye for an eye (as it would soon make the whole world blind).

So I'm in a bit of a bind.

But my initial thoughts are sticking firmly - if we are sorry we admit we did something wrong and face the consequences. Whatever they happen to be.