Would a just and merciful God send most of His creation to an eternal hell?

[rstrats]

Henaynei,

re: "whether or not you want to admit it you do choose. "

On a subconscious level you are probably right. But, I have never been able to CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. I would really like to have that ability. I don’t think that it can be done. However, since a number of folks on these boards say that they CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I ask them to demonstrate their ability and to explain how they do it. So far noone has been responsive to that request.

re: "we are not talking about leprechauns we are talking about moral, ethical and spiritual beliefs..."

A belief is a belief. What difference does it make with regard to the object of the belief?

 

[rstrats]

Rev. Smith,

re: "As to the wee folk, I have an open mind."

But can you consciously CHOOSE to believe - be convinced, without a doubt - that they exist?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Rev. Smith,

re: "As to the wee folk, I have an open mind."

But can you consciously CHOOSE to believe - be convinced, without a doubt - that they exist?

Perhaps they don't know what it means to actually BELIEVE something?

A person can choose to hope something exists...or really wish it exists...or act like it exists...or make decisions as if it does exist....or live like it probably exists...or not think about it not existing.

But a person can't choose to actually believe something exists...the belief just HAPPENS once they become convinced of the truth of it's existence.

There has to be a conviction of truth before belief can happen.

Now once that conviction of truth happens, then the belief happens automatically....it's not like you can stop yourself from believing something that you've become convinced is true. You may not WANT to believe it, or LIKE believing it....but you WILL believe it because you SEE that it's true.....at which point the person can choose to DENY the truth and DENY the belief.....

Only God knows when that happens. Only God knows if a person genuinely has no belief because they haven't been shown the truth of it (which means they CAN'T believe) and when a person HAS been shown the truth of it....DOES believe it....yet supresses and denies the belief and CHOOSES to act like it's not true because of some agenda.

And by the same token....He ALSO knows when a person hasn't genuinely been convinced of the truth yet, and they are only PRETENDING to believe, when in actuality they aren't sure.

 

[rstrats]

EchoPneuma,

re: "There has to be a conviction of truth before belief can happen. "

Agreed, but I would refine that statement by saying that a conviction actually is the belief.

 

[EchoPneuma]

EchoPneuma,

re: "There has to be a conviction of truth before belief can happen. "

Agreed, but I would refine that statement by saying that a conviction actually is the belief.

True....they are probably so closely linked that they could be considered one and the same, even though technically they are two separate things.

In other words, as soon as it dawns on a person that something really is TRUE....then they, by necessity, must at that moment believe it....or else they wouldn't really be convinced it's true at all.

You're right....the conviction of the truth is in itself the point when a person begins to believe something is true.

If not one and the same thing.....it's too close to call.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I agree that we do not choose what we believe. As Echo said we can want to believe something, say we believe it, pretend to believe it. We can want not to believe it, say we don't believe it, pretend we don't believe it. However, deep down we either believe or we do not and choice has little to do with it.

Still there are many who will always come back to the statement we choose what we believe. I think the reason for this is that it is the only way they can reconcille in thier own mind a loving God who wants people to be saved yet punishes them severely for not believing. They want to believe what they are told, some feel they must believe what they are told and they try really hard to do just that but what they end up doing is lying to themselves and others.

We do not choose what we believe. We hear something that either makes sense to us or it does not. It seems possible or it does not. The teller seems credible or does not. All these things are basic reactions that really involve no choice. We can want with all our heart body and soul to believe something and still not really believe it simply because it either does not make sense or seems impossible. Every piece of information we have ever collected into our minds goes into these thought processes and the only way we can eliminate these things is by lying to ourselves which imo is perhaps the greatest sin of all for if we can't be honest with ourselves how can we trust anyone, or have faith in anything at all?

How many here can honestly say they never have any doubts about thier religion? Can one honestly be a true believer while having doubts? Aren't belief and doubt opposites? How many can even say they have not had doubts as to the existance of eternal hell or eternal life or heaven or even God? Did they choose to have these doubts or do they come about naturally as a result of things within and around us which are totally beyond our control? Does not belief in these things also come from the same sources?

 

[Henaynei]

Henaynei,

re: "whether or not you want to admit it you do choose. "

On a subconscious level you are probably right. But, I have never been able to CONSCIOUSLY CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have. I would really like to have that ability. I don’t think that it can be done. However, since a number of folks on these boards say that they CAN consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I ask them to demonstrate their ability and to explain how they do it. So far noone has been responsive to that request.

re: "we are not talking about leprechauns we are talking about moral, ethical and spiritual beliefs..."

A belief is a belief. What difference does it make with regard to the object of the belief?

I have on more than one occasion chosen to love individuals I found imminently unlovable, I have chosen to trust some who have demonstrated profound distrustful behavior, I have chosen to believe the written word of G-d when intellectually the concept, ideas and position made no sense to me at all ---- I have found that in spite of the intellectual incongruity, it sometimes REALLY is necessary to believe before you will be able to see

 

[ONEGod]

ONEGod:
Many would say all believers or those that call themselves believers are the elect, scripture does NOT bare that out. Scripture does give the nature of the elect and indicates some of the Jews as being chosen/elect.


Matthew 22:1-14 KJV

1And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Colossians 3:11-13 (King James Version)
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

ONEGod:
Humility being a clear pre-requisite;

Luke 9:48
And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

 

[Pneuma3]

Pneuma3
Regular Member
They are those that are "fitted" to destruction.

ONEGod:
Certainly there are those that love themselves more than God, of such was Satan. They will go to dwell with him and receive his inheritance. Some would say, receive due recompense. You dance, you pay the fiddler. Choices HAVE consequences.

choices don't have consequences.

But the choice is not ours to make in that choice comes from which nature has control of us.

The law of sin has been established in man and a law MUST be obeyed until a greater law supperseeds the old law.

Think of the law of gravity, it MUST be obeyed until a greater law supperseeds the law of gravity.

If you throw a stone into the air it will fall back to the earth for the law of gravity is at work.

Now take a balloon fill it with helium and let it go.

The balloon goes up for the law of helium supperseeded the law of gravity.

How can one who knows not God overcome the law of sin within him? They cannot, it is only overcome when the law of the spirit of liberty in Christ SETS THEM FREE.

Read Ro.7 as Paul brings this principal to light.

What many seem to want is for the law of sin to be supperseeded by themselves, saying if I chose not to sin I won't sin, yet Paul says the good that I would do I do not, but that which I would not do is that which I do.

Why could Paul not do the good he would do?

Because of the law of sin in his members.

This law of sin Paul realized could not be overcome by choice but only by spirit of liberty in Christ that SETS US FREE.

So it does not matter what choice we make for the law of sin overides our every choices until the law of liberty in Christ supperseeds the law of sin.

 

[debi b]

But the choice is not ours to make in that choice comes from which nature has control of us.

The law of sin has been established in man and a law MUST be obeyed until a greater law supperseeds the old law.

appreciating that it is possible to see things in more than one way - I am very familiar with Romans 7 and do not have the same take on it as you do

Eve had to overcome her own desire BEFORE there was sin...

 

[Rev. Smith]

choices don't have consequences.

But the choice is not ours to make in that choice comes from which nature has control of us.

The law of sin has been established in man and a law MUST be obeyed until a greater law supperseeds the old law.

I am familar with Romans (as are all Christians), I have come to different conclusions then you have.

Explain this, in light of the OP. If your inturpretation of St. Paul is correct (and, being correct may be used to supercede the teachings of Jesus) then:

How is this moral? We are promised that God is just, holy and merciful. If, as you propose, man has no choice since this "law of sin" will compell man to sin, and that the only escape is not a choce either (at least not by the man) then how is it moral for God to condem any man to eternal damnation for acting in accord with the nature HE made us with?

It seems to me that if your understanding of the nature of God and man is correct then the conclusion that God is just is unsupportable.

What is the nature of this God that you think Paul described?

 

[FineLinen]

Rev. Smith can you define for us the justice of God, and how it differs from the justice of men?

"Human justice may be a poor distortion of justice, a mere shadow of it; but the justice of God must be perfect....God does nothing of which any just man, the thing set fairly before him so that he understood, would not say, 'that is fair.' -George MacDonald-

 

[FineLinen]

How is it moral for God to condemn any man to eternal damnation for acting in accord with the nature HE made us with?

Our Father does not condemn any man to "eternal damnation". In fact: the same "damnation" that is applied to the vilest of sinners, begins at the house of God, those whom St. James describes as his brethren..."my brothers be not many teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater damnation."

Let's Talk Fairness

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all mankind unto condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all mankind unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous."

 

[Rev. Smith]

Rev. Smith can you define for us the justice of God, and how it differs from the justice of men?

"Human justice may be a poor distortion of justice, a mere shadow of it; but the justice of God must be perfect....God does nothing of which any just man, the thing set fairly before him so that he understood, would not say, 'that is fair.' -George MacDonald-

I can't and won't presume to speak for God. Holy Scripture gives us God's complete revelation to man, but that almost certainly doesn't mean that we know all there is to know of God.

What scripture seems to reveal is that God holds man accountable for how he lives his life. Under the covenant of Moses God accorded men sanctity by his fidelity to the Law. Under the Covenant of Jesus man will be judged (at least as I read it, I know the Prots disagree) on his service to fellow men, love and worship of God and on keeping the commandments.

Under each covenant Gd tells us that we will be judged by the content of our hearts and the actions we undertake.

This is the core of my issue with some of the folks on this thread. If, as they assert, man is a corrupt slave of sin who is incapable of choosing piety then how is God just for codemnation of men for living acording to the nature he gave us?

To use Mr. McDonald's test - I could not call that fair. Now to me the answer is simple, man is NOT inherently corrupt in IS cpable of making choices with his life, including the choice to lov and worship God, and to strive to live in piety and holiness. I posed my questions to those who argued for the depravity of man theory to see how they might untie the knot.

 

[Pneuma3]

I am familar with Romans (as are all Christians), I have come to different conclusions then you have.

Explain this, in light of the OP. If your inturpretation of St. Paul is correct (and, being correct may be used to supercede the teachings of Jesus) then:

How is this moral? We are promised that God is just, holy and merciful. If, as you propose, man has no choice since this "law of sin" will compell man to sin, and that the only escape is not a choce either (at least not by the man) then how is it moral for God to condem any man to eternal damnation for acting in accord with the nature HE made us with?

It seems to me that if your understanding of the nature of God and man is correct then the conclusion that God is just is unsupportable.

What is the nature of this God that you think Paul described?

God is not condeming man to a life of eternal damnation, and it is because you see eternal damnation that you would see what I said making God immoral.

Let me ask you according to your understanding of there being eternal damnation is God being moral to place all men in Judgment because of one mans sin?


I can say yes to this because I understand there is no eternal damnation, for you to say yes would make God do something immoral. That would be akin to saying because my parents sinned and even if I did not I get punished because of my parents sin. You want God to be a God of justice but there in no justice in judging me for my parent sin.

People need to quit playing the blame game, Adam tried it ,Eve tried it and now people today are doing the same thing saying I am a sinner because of the first man Adam. this is hogwash imo.
We are sinners because we were created short of the glroy of God and God is taking the worst of all the things He created and making them into His image and likeness.

When God created man He created man a living creature with the law of sin in his memebers.

But sin was not imputed unto man until God placed before man the command not to eat of the tree, the moment man ate from the tree of knowledge (the law)
man realized he was a sinner in need of a saviour.

​

​

Original sin, what is it?

Is it what the churches have been teaching us, that Adam disobeyed God and brought sin into the world?

OR

Was sin already in the world before Adam disobeyed God?

Disobedience is a manifestation of SIN that was/is already in the heart of man.

SIN was already in man before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The knowledge of good and evil is the law, so let’s look at that first so we can understand what happened in the garden of Eden.

The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.

Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.

Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.

There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there an actual tree that gives us knowledge.

The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.

What is this tree that can bring death to man?

Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is?

The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world.
Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.

Now the scriptures say God made a help meet for man.

Please read the garden story and see if you can see anywhere how mans help meet helped him.

According to church knowledge Eve did not help Adam but dragged him into SIN by giving him the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

So was God wrong to call Eve a help meet for Adam?

Of course not, Eve did exactly what God created her to do, she helped Adam by giving him the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Now you’re probably asking yourself how can giving Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil be of help to him.

Let’s look back at what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is (the law) and what the law does.

The law reveals SIN to man, without the law man would not know that he was a sinner.

Adam was created in SIN but did not know that he was, thus God created a help meet for Adam. Eve by giving Adam of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil helped Adam realize that he was a sinner in need of a redeemer.

To understand this we need to look at what Paul says about Adam in 1 Cor.15

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.

The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.

Now in conclusion Paul says

1 Corinthians 15:50-51

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

God bless.

 

[FineLinen]

I can't and won't presume to speak for God. Holy Scripture gives us God's complete revelation to man, but that almost certainly doesn't mean that we know all there is to know of God.

What scripture seems to reveal is that God holds man accountable for how he lives his life. Under the covenant of Moses God accorded men sanctity by his fidelity to the Law. Under the Covenant of Jesus man will be judged (at least as I read it, I know the Prots disagree) on his service to fellow men, love and worship of God and on keeping the commandments.

Under each covenant Gd tells us that we will be judged by the content of our hearts and the actions we undertake.

This is the core of my issue with some of the folks on this thread. If, as they assert, man is a corrupt slave of sin who is incapable of choosing piety then how is God just for codemnation of men for living acording to the nature he gave us?

To use Mr. McDonald's test - I could not call that fair. Now to me the answer is simple, man is NOT inherently corrupt in IS cpable of making choices with his life, including the choice to lov and worship God, and to strive to live in piety and holiness. I posed my questions to those who argued for the depravity of man theory to see how they might untie the knot.

So then, Rev. Smith, are we to assume then that man's eternal destiny has a foundation that is solely based on his choices? Does man's will (free, or otherwise) displace the sovereign Will of all wills?

[move]"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everthing ends. Source, Guide and Goal of all that is, to whom be glory forever. Amen![/move]

The Confident i

Just to Know

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I know that I know little, but I'm thankful for the little I know

But most of all of I am thankful that I know how little I know,

For the highest knowledge I know of is to know how little I know.

Some know much and they know it; But they never seem to know,

That they know so very little of what there is to know,

For the highest knowledge they know of is just the little they know.

What they know is the basis of knowledge. All must bow to what they know,

Whether of Moses, Jesus or Godhead for they know all there is to know.

Oh, Blessed the man that knows nothing, nothing yet as he ought to know,

For the surest way to know something is to know that nothing you know,

To sit at the feet of Jesus and learn what you need to know.

-Author unknown-

 

[Henaynei]

It was G-d's Sovereign Will to give man the freedom/gift of making his own choices - when man chooses to abdicate this freedom/gift that G-d has given to him, to throw it back at G-d saying I don't want this, that is yet another example of a man rejecting G-d's Sovereign Will.

 

[FineLinen]

It was G-d's Sovereign Will to give man the freedom/gift of making his own choices

And that would be based upon what Scripture, pray tell?

[move]the creation was made subject to slavery, not willingly (not by any choice of its own), but by reason of Him who has so subjected it in hope.[/move]

 

[soma77]

The answer to the question is no, not a loving God.

 

[Pneuma3]

It was G-d's Sovereign Will to give man the freedom/gift of making his own choices - when man chooses to abdicate this freedom/gift that G-d has given to him, to throw it back at G-d saying I don't want this, that is yet another example of a man rejecting G-d's Sovereign Will.

if God gave man a free will and then man exercised that free will God gave him to reject God and then God places man in eternal damnation for using what He Himself gave man where is the justice in that?

If it is a free will as you and many others state why is there a penilty for using it?

There is no such thing as a free will, we are either a servent of sin or a servent of Jesus Christ but either way we a servent and if a servent our will is not free.