Would a just and merciful God send most of His creation to an eternal hell?

[Rev. Smith]

Have you read the didache? specifically the parts about the way of life and the way of death? If so what is your opinion on it?

And personally believe it ought to be part of the Christian canon, in my own life I treat it as such. I reccomend it to anyone as a very holy tretise on being a Christian.

 

[Pneuma3]

that has been debated for centuries either way my point is valid

not at all - I'm saying that G-d is sovereign and merciful


Man has a choice which it is - and G-d, in His mercy, paid a great price and made a way out of slavery to sin , available to every man, instead of leaving us no choice but that bondage.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

I don't see how God can becalled sovereign unless He is in all things, and I don't see how God can be called merifull if He is going to eternally torment people when it was He himself who subjected man to vanity. It would be like a cat playing with a mouse.


Man does have a will but mans will is in slavery to the law of sin within us until a greater law sets us free from the law of sin.

The people in Egypt could not deleiver themselves out of Egypt even though they wanted out because they were in bondage to the Egyptians. God had to send a deliverer to set them free.

And God has sent the great diliverer Jesus Christ to set at liberty those who have been a long time in bondage to the law of sin in thier bodies.

It is not by man choice that they are delivered out of bondage it is because the deliverer has come and delivered man.

It is not about what we do, it's about what Jesus has already done.

It is not of him the willeth nor of him the runneth but of God.

 

[Henaynei]

all I can say is that I am eternally glad G-d is G-d and not any human - human standards are too arbitrary and vacillating - G-d's are clear and eternal

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Rev. Smith]

IMan does have a will but mans will is in slavery to the law of sin within us until a greater law sets us free from the law of sin...

It is not by man choice that they are delivered out of bondage it is because the deliverer has come and delivered man.

It is not about what we do, it's about what Jesus has already done.

If man is in "bondage to the law of sin", and thus can not, by his will seek to be virtious, then how is ANY punishment by God justified? Can God be declared merciful, loving and just if he punishes a creature for doing that which it is incapable of abstaining from?

 

[Pneuma3]

If man is in "bondage to the law of sin", and thus can not, by his will seek to be virtious, then how is ANY punishment by God justified? Can God be declared merciful, loving and just if he punishes a creature for doing that which it is incapable of abstaining from?

God does not punish people as the mainstream churches tell us He does. The punishment is for correction just as you would punish your child in order to correct them.

Whom God loves He chastises.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God does not punish people as the mainstream churches tell us He does. The punishment is for correction just as you would punish your child in order to correct them.

Whom God loves He chastises.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW7.htm

'The words of the Lord are PURE words: AS SILVER TRIED IN A FURNACE OF EARTH, PURIFIED SEVEN TIMES' (Ps. 12:6). We know now why things get so hot when we begin to truly hear from the Lord - HIS WORDS HAVE TO BE PURIFIED in us!

[SIZE=+2]Daniel 7:9 " I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment [was] white as snow, And the hair of His head [was] like pure wool. His throne [was] a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.[/SIZE]

[/quote]
[SIZE=+2]Mala 3:2 And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is standing in his appearing? For he [is] as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller. 3 And he hath sat, a refiner and purifier of silver, And he hath purified the sons of Levi, And hath refined them as gold and as silver, And they have been to Jehovah bringing nigh a present in righteousness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]
Ezekiel 22:19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you. 21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury on you.' "[/SIZE]

 

[ONEGod]

Matthew 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

ONEGod:
Seems to be making a point that some don't wish to hear. Is God unfair or willful man tainted with ears that want to be tickled ? I'll chose God every time.

 

[Pneuma3]

Matthew 7:13-14
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

ONEGod:
Seems to be making a point that some don't wish to hear. Is God unfair or willful man tainted with ears that want to be tickled ? I'll chose God every time.

If you read more of those scriptures you will see that the people wanted to go in by the strait gate but were unable.

Heres what those scriptures say to me.
First they are talking about entering into the kingdom of heaven, so I look at them in that vane.

13Enter ye in(to the kingdom of heaven)at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in(to the kingdom of heaven) by that way.
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

They are those that are "fitted" to destruction.

 

[ONEGod]

Pneuma3
Regular Member
They are those that are "fitted" to destruction.

ONEGod:
Certainly there are those that love themselves more than God, of such was Satan. They will go to dwell with him and receive his inheritance. Some would say, receive due recompense. You dance, you pay the fiddler. Choices HAVE consequences.

 

[rstrats]

Henaynei,


re: "...those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe..."

Are you actually saying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

 

[EchoPneuma]

Henaynei,


re: "...those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe..."

Are you actually saying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

Good question.

How can a person choose to believe something? If they aren't convinced of it's truthfulness, no amount of CHOICE could make them actually believe it. THey could SAY they believe it, but they wouldn't truthfully believe it.

God has to grant someone repentance, belief and faith...they are gifts. These gifts are given to ALL men at one time or another because God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance....and God wills ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth....therefore He will grant these gifts to ALL men.....eventually reconciling ALL to Himself through Jesus.

 

[Henaynei]

Henaynei,


re: "...those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe..."

Are you actually saying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

yes

Good question.

How can a person choose to believe something? If they aren't convinced of it's truthfulness, no amount of CHOICE could make them actually believe it. They could SAY they believe it, but they wouldn't truthfully believe it.

God has to grant someone repentance, belief and faith...they are gifts. These gifts are given to ALL men at one time or another because God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance....and God wills ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth....therefore He will grant these gifts to ALL men.....eventually reconciling ALL to Himself through Jesus.

I disagree - I have had the experience many times of people rejecting what they admit is true about G-d.

G-d makes Himself visible throughout our daily lives and in the world around us (no, I'm not making some rose-colored Pollyanna statement here - He is as evident in the pains and ugliness as in the joys and beauty)

the essence of rebellion is the willful rejection of that which one knows to be true.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[debi b]

Henaynei,


re: "...those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe..."

Are you actually saying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

Sure why not?

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life...

Josh 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...

 

[ONEGod]

Quote:
the essence of rebellion is the willful rejection of that which one knows to be true.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

ONEGod:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It seems to be offensive by those that want to reject God, God's Ways, and truth, and still claim heaven. Imagine that, the self absorbed belief that You can have it all, and God is unfair to not let you have your complete selfish way without consequences !

 

[EchoPneuma]

Imagine that, the self absorbed belief that You can have it all, and God is unfair to not let you have your complete selfish way without consequences !

Who has said there is no consequences? Even universalists (like me) say that a person will go to the Lake of Fire for unrepented rebellion....but they just won't stay there for eternity. Most assuredly there IS consequences. But you seem to think that punishment is only punishment if it is eternal. That's simply not true.

 

[Kardecisma]

I just posted a reply in "May a Christian Believe in Reincarnation" when I noticed this thread, so I will put that quote here also

I was doing further reading in the writings of Allan Kardec (see original post) in The Spirits' Book, and I came upon some quotes which so eloquently refute the viewpoint of the "damnationists". I include it below:

1009. According to that, the penalties imposed on spirits are never eternal? "Interrogate your common sense, your reason, and ask yourself whether an eternal condemnation for a few moments of error would not be the negation of the goodness of God? What, in fact, is the duration of a human life, even though prolonged to a hundred years, in comparison with eternity? ETERNITY! Do you rightly comprehend the word? sufferings, tortures, without end, without hope, for a few faults! Does not your judgment reject such an idea? That the ancients should have seen, in the Master of the Universe, a terrible, jealous, vindictive God, is conceivable, for, in their ignorance, they attributed to the Divinity the passions of men; but such is not the God of the Christians, who places love, charity, pity, the forgetfulness of offences, in the foremost rank of virtues, and who could not lack the qualities which He has made it the duty of His creatures to possess. Is it not a contradiction to attribute to Him infinite love and infinite vengeance? You say that God's justice is infinite, transcending the limited understanding of mankind; but justice does not exclude kindness, and God would not be kind if He condemned the greater number of His creatures to horrible and unending punishment. Could He make it obligatory on His children to be just, if His own action towards them did not give them the most perfect standard of justice? And is it not the very sublimity of justice and of kindness to make the duration of punishment to depend on the efforts of the guilty one to amend, and to mete out the appropriate recompense, both for good and for evil, 'to each, according to his works'?"



There is much more where this came from.

 

[rstrats]

Henaynei,

re: "yes"

deb. b,

re: "Sure why not?"

Perhaps you folks can help me, then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

[ONEGod]

Freedom of choice, not unlike the rebellious choice Adam and Eve made and we've been paying for ever since. It's amazing how many of those that demand freedom of choice also rail against accountability.
I think only the brainwashed are those who have had beliefs forced on them. If there is no choice, then there is no sin. (refer back to second sentence)

 

[Henaynei]

Henaynei,

re: "yes"

deb. b,

re: "Sure why not?"

Perhaps you folks can help me, then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

the essence of rebellion is the willful rejection of that which one knows to be true - of the essence of love - depends on the context and the issues.

whether or not you want to admit it you do choose. there have been times in your (in every one's) life when you have chosen one "belief" over another even in spite of evidence to the contrary. Because of the loss that such a belief would represent, or the social pressure - high school is a great example! Belief is demonstrated by action. Action is based on your true beliefs, not your spoken or espoused ones.


we are not talking about leprechauns we are talking about moral, ethical and spiritual beliefs - it is true that most of us refuse to believe until we have "proof," or need to "see" to believe

John 20:29 - Show Context Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Rev. Smith]

Perhaps you folks can help me, then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

There are, in fact, many people (mostly in Old Eire) who do believe in the Little People. They arrive at that belief in the same manner that I arrived in my beief that there is a God, that he became man. That he taught us the complete path to sanctity, and that he died in utter defeat at the hands of human power, and then defeated human power by rising from the dead. They arrive at that belief by hearing and seeing the evidance and choosing to give fidelity to the truth as they have seen, felt and experienced it. For most of those folks the fact that science, culture and rational neighbors dismiss their conclusions as curious and quant troubls them not at all. We all must find our way, we all must choose our path. I sought God because I choose to live a life of meaning. I searched, and found truth in Jesus.

I have read and heard the witness of Islam, Budhism, Shinto, Tao, Hinduism and Zen. I have taken much of value in wisdom from each of these. Only in the teachings of Jesus of Nazarth did I find truth complete and whole. Having read his words, and felt hs calling in my heart I choose to live in his ways, to try to both DO his creed, and help others reach the same joy.

As to the wee folk, I have an open mind.