Would a just and merciful God send most of His creation to an eternal hell?

[Soul Searcher]

CHAPTER 46: The Transfiguration on the Mount.
The Giving of the Law

1.After six days, when the Feast of Tabernacles was near at hand, Yeshua took the twelve and brought them separately up into a high mountain, and as he was praying his appearance was changed , and he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

2.And, behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him and speaking of the law, and of His decease (1997 translation reads "purpose") which He should accomplish at Jerusalem .

3.And Moses spoke, saying, "This is He of whom I foretold saying, 'a prophet from the midst of your brothers like myself, will the eternal send to you, and that which the eternal reveals to him, he will tell you. And to him will you listen. Those who will not obey will bring their own destruction upon themselves'."

4.Then Peter said to Yeshua, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you will let us make three tabernacles here; one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5.While he still spoke, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and twelve rays as of the sun issued from behind the cloud, and a voice came out of the cloud, which said, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; Do you hear him."

6.And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were amazed. And Yeshua came and touched them and said, "Arise and be not afraid." And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Yeshua only. And the six glories were seen upon him.

7.And Yeshua said to them, "Behold a new law I give to you, which is not new but old. Even as Moses gave the Ten Commandments to Israel after the flesh , so also I give to you the twelve for the kingdom of Israel after the spirit."

8.For who are the Israel of God? Even they of every nation and tribe who work righteousness, love, mercy and keep my commandments, these are the true Israel of God. And standing upon his feet, Yeshua spoke, saying:

9."Hear O Israel, IOVA, Thy God is One; Many are My seers, and My prophets. In me all live and move, and have subsistence.":

10."You Shall not take away the life of any creature for your pleasure, nor for your profit, nor yet torment it."

11."You Shall not steal the goods of any, nor gather lands and riches to yourselves, beyond your need or use."

12."You shall not eat the flesh , nor drink the blood of any slaughtered creature, not yet anything which brings disorder to your health or senses.

13."You shall not make impure marriages, where love and health are not, nor yet corrupt yourselves, or any creature made pure by the holy."

14."You shall not bear false witness against any, nor willfully deceive any by a lie to hurt them."

15."You shall not do to others, as you would not that others should do to you."

16."You shall worship One eternal, the Father-Mother in heaven, of whom are all things, and reverence the holy name."

17."You shall revere your fathers and your mothers on earth, whose care is for you, and all the teachers of righteousness."

18."You shall cherish and protect the weak, and those who are oppressed, and all creatures that suffer wrong."

19."You shall work with your hands the things that are good and seemly; so will you eat the fruits of the earth, and live long in the land."

20."You will purify yourselves daily and rest the seventh day from labor, keeping holy the Sabbath and the festivals of your God."

21."You shall do to others, as you would that others should do to you."

22.And when the disciples heard these words, they beat on their breasts, saying, "Wherein we have offended, O God forgive us; and may thy wisdom, love and truth within us, incline our hearts to love and keep this Holy Law."

23.And Yeshua said to them, "My yoke is equal and my burden light, if you will to bear it, to you it will be easy. Lay no other burden on those that enter into the kingdom, but only these necessary things."

24."This is the new law to the Israel of God, and the law is within, for it is the law of love, and it is not new but old. Take heed that you add nothing to this law, neither take anything from it. They who believe and obey this law will be saved, and they who don't know and obey it will be lost."

25."But as in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive. And the disobedient will be purged through many fires; and they who persist will descend and will perish eternally."

26.And as they came down from the mountain, Yeshua charged them saying, "Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of Man has risen again from the dead." (1997 version reads: Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of Man be risen again from among them that sleep")

27.His disciples asked Him, , "Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?" And Yeshua answered and said to them, "Elias truly will first come and restore all things."

28."But I say to you, that Elias is come already, and they did not know him, but have done to him whatsoever they listed. Likewise the Son of Man will also suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist .


Thoughts?

 

[Rev. Smith]

Wow! Thats quite a sermon, Rev. But it doesn't convince me, or show me any reason why I should change my opinion. Sorry. Maybe next Sunday?

Your on, St Bede's 1350 W. Ina Rd, Tucson, AZ. Service starts at 9:30. The really interesting theological discussions don't start until coffee hour (which often stretches into several hours) in the rectory.

 

[Rev. Smith]

CHAPTER 46: The Transfiguration on the Mount.
The Giving of the Law.....

Thoughts?

First, I was unaware that so complete a copy exists. There are a number of referances to the Gospel in early church history, and it was considered (and rejected) for inclusion in the canon. I had always understood that no more then a few fragments survived. What is your source for this extensive excerpt?

Second, To the extent that these laws combine and clarify the the 10 commandmets, the noahide laws and Christs own later teachings in the Gospels there is nothing overtly heritical in them. The beef industry might object, as might the stricter conservative sects since this does serious violence to St. Pauls teachings. For example St. Paul declares that all liars are damned, yet here Jesus seems to say that only lies that injure are sinful.

Third, to accept this creates tension with Jesus' own techings. Jesusl teaches, according to the gospels, that only Love of God, Love of Man and keeping the commandments are essential to Life, but here he includes far more - sabath keeping, vegiatarian diet, a proro-socialism (take no more then you need of land and goods) and so on. While it is a far cry from Moses' 600+ laws, it still remains a framwork of LAW, rather then the spiritual doctrine that He teaches elsewhere. While plausable arguments to reconcile the two teachings can certainly be constructed, that's the problem in order to make the Jesus of the synoptic gospels mesh with the Jesus of this gospel a lot of mental gymnastics are required.

I suspect that this gospel is a pious fraud, but would love to see the evidence for it.

 

[Pneuma3]

of laws spoken of in scripture.

One set was penned by Moses which are kosher laws and the other was written in stone by God Himself.


I think when we lump the 600+ laws Moses wrote with the 10 written in stone is were we come into error.

As concerning the 10 written in stone, they NEVER change but are always in effect.

Here are my thoughts on the 10.

The law is a twofold work the bringing of judgment and of grace.


We read is 2 Corinthians that the ministration of death is to be done away with.
What! How can that which leads to Christ be done away with?
Read on.


2 Corinthians 3:6-14
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.



Luke 10:25-27
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28-31
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

These commandment were known and read.

So then why does it say in another place it’s a new commandment?

Answer to this question is further down in the post.

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 John 2:7-8
7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

2 John 5-6
5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Answer: Because the natural man ( old man ) does not understand spiritual things.

When the Spirit of God reveals the true meaning of the law to us , it becomes new to our understanding, but the truth was always held in the law, for the law is spiritual.

John explains this when he wrote “Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.”

Then he explains why the old commandment becomes new “because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

The commandments then have been written in our hearts.



It’s the same law, its just how we apprehend the law, for the old man it’s death, for the new man it’s the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

When we are in Christ all things become new.

A new heaven and earth.


Continued...

 

[Pneuma3]

Romans 8:1-4

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death.

I am in full agreement with this statement.

So then how does the law of the Spirit of life frees us from the law of sin and death?

We have to die to self before we are free from the law of sin and death.
Now we cannot die to self because we are weak though the flesh, or said another way, our fleshly natural life cannot die to itself.
Thus God sending His son in the likeness of sinful flesh ,and for sin ,condemned sin in the flesh.
For what purpose?
That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED in us.

This is done not of works but by faith in Jesus Christ.
We of our own selves cannot keep Gods laws, but Though faith in Christ we are able to fulfill Gods law.

Jesus Christ is our example 1Pe.2:21

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Now as Jesus is our example and He fulfilled the law ,we must also fulfill the law or we do not live after our example.

Now let me make this as plain as I can so no one accuses me of trying to bring us again into bondage of the law.

It is though faith in Jesus Christ that the law can only be fulfilled, not by any works of the law we try to do. The fulfilling of Gods law is all done though faith.

The above scripture say Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Until the law though Christ is fulfilled in us by faith one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

Galatians 2:15-21
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This passage of scripture is speaking of trying to be justified by the works of the law, this we cannot do. Our justification come only though faith in Jesus Christ. For if righteousness cometh by the works ( for it is works of the law these scriptures are speaking of) of the law then Christ is dead in vain. Paul explains how it is though life in Christ that he liveth. Therefore it is Christ that liveth in us and not of ourselves that Gods law is fulfilled. For Jesus Christ fulfilled Gods law in His person and He will fulfill it in ours also.

This is explained further in

Romans 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The end of the law is the fulfillment of it for Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfil it.

When the law is fulfilled in us though Jesus Christ the law has no more hold on us for we have become dead to it but alive onto Christ.

This is worth repeating here:

And it is by fulfilling the law that the law no longer has any power over us.



Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We can see here that love is the fulfilling the law.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All Gods law hang on two principles: to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbour as ourselves.

If God law is done away with then so is the commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbour as ourselves for on these two commandments HANG all the law and the prophets.

Brother/sister if you can except it the commandments “thou shalt not” are not just commandments per say but they are also a commandment with the promise to us “ thou shalt not”.
Example: “thou shalt not” covet is a commandment telling us not to covet.
Now if we look at the promise side of it we see
“Thou shalt not” covet, meaning when we are in Christ we “will not covet.”

1 John 3:20-24
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater
than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that KEEPETH his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

If we are not keeping His commandments we are not dwelling in Him, but have again come under the law.
It is the fulfilling of the law that loosens us from the bondage of the letter of the law.

This is only done by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfills Gods law in us
.
If we are alive in Him how can we not but fulfill Gods law.

 

[Rev. Smith]

of laws spoken of in scripture.

One set was penned by Moses which are kosher laws and the other was written in stone by God Himself.


I think when we lump the 600+ laws Moses wrote with the 10 written in stone is were we come into error.

Then we must also believe him about the other 590. Moses assures us that all of the Law came from God, not just the Ten.

I agree with you that the Ten Commandments are singular, and the direct expression of the will of God, but to dismiss the remainder is hard to support. First of all the Law in Torah concerns far more then the kosher laws. The code governs liturgy, agriculture, criminal and civil justice, the practice of religion both public and private and the very covenant between God and Isreal.

Almost all of the passages that assert the law begin with the phrase "Yahweh said to Moses.." - In other places the recital begins "Yahweh said to Mose and Aaron..."

In his final address to the people Moses declares:

"And now, Isreal, take notice of the laws and customs I teach you today, and observe them that you may have life and enter into the land that Yahweh the God of your fathers is giving you. You must add nothing to what Icommand you, and take nothing from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God just as I lay them down for you. Duet 4:1-3 emphasis added"

Moses seems to assert that al of the law is a)from Yahweh and b) of equal importance. Oter passages in Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leveiticus support this contention.

Since it is true that us Gentiles are not the covenant partners with God NONE of the law (including the ten commandments) applies to us. We become acceptable to God through His Christ, and thus are brought into the new covenant, this one not with Isreal but with the world.

The obligations of man in this New Covenant are those you so aptle describe, Love God, Love mankind, keep the (10) commandments.

 

[Soul Searcher]

First, I was unaware that so complete a copy exists. There are a number of referances to the Gospel in early church history, and it was considered (and rejected) for inclusion in the canon. I had always understood that no more then a few fragments survived. What is your source for this extensive excerpt?

Here is a link to some info about this gospel
http://www.thenazareneway.com/legend_of_the_lost_gospel.htm
more info and complete online text.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/ght_table_of_contents.htm

Second, To the extent that these laws combine and clarify the the 10 commandmets, the noahide laws and Christs own later teachings in the Gospels there is nothing overtly heritical in them. The beef industry might object, as might the stricter conservative sects since this does serious violence to St. Pauls teachings. For example St. Paul declares that all liars are damned, yet here Jesus seems to say that only lies that injure are sinful.

In regaurds to telling a lie this Gospel also says..

7. Yea, and if a man telleth the truth to his neighbour in such wise as to lead him into evil, even thought it be true in the letter, he is guilty.

Third, to accept this creates tension with Jesus' own techings. Jesusl teaches, according to the gospels, that only Love of God, Love of Man and keeping the commandments are essential to Life, but here he includes far more - sabath keeping, vegiatarian diet, a proro-socialism (take no more then you need of land and goods) and so on. While it is a far cry from Moses' 600+ laws, it still remains a framwork of LAW, rather then the spiritual doctrine that He teaches elsewhere. While plausable arguments to reconcile the two teachings can certainly be constructed, that's the problem in order to make the Jesus of the synoptic gospels mesh with the Jesus of this gospel a lot of mental gymnastics are required.

I don't think so.. The Gospel according to Matthew is very similar to this one in many many aspects.

I suspect that this gospel is a pious fraud, but would love to see the evidence for it.

And you may very well be correct. I do not know, but I have read most of this gospel and it does contian much that I perceive to be true. It could be that someone took our existing NT and created a clever fraud by choosing certian parts and embelishing it. Or it could be that it is a copy of a document that existed before those that we now have.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Then we must also believe him about the other 590. Moses assures us that all of the Law came from God, not just the Ten.

For me it is very difficult to believe that God commanded people to stone people to death for breaking one of the commandments. It is even more difficult to believe that God would place a higher value on the life of a free man than that of a servant. The list doesn't stop here so many things in the old law seem completely unlike something that would come from a wise and loving creator and much more like what would come from primative man.

 

[Pneuma3]

I am not doing away with the 600+ laws Moses penned just saying they are different then the 10 God penned.

 

[Pneuma3]

For me it is very difficult to believe that God commanded people to stone people to death for breaking one of the commandments. It is even more difficult to believe that God would place a higher value on the life of a free man than that of a servant. The list doesn't stop here so many things in the old law seem completely unlike something that would come from a wise and loving creator and much more like what would come from primative man.

the law after the letter or after the spirit of the law?

This is the way I look at those things written in the old testament about God commanding people to be stoned and killed etc.

Say God comes into your room today and says kill that man over there as he is your enemy.

Yet you know that God says in His commandment thou shalt not kill.

What do you do? Do you take it literally grap a gun and go blow this enemys head off.

or

Do you go show forth the love of God to your enemy making that enemy God said go kill, your friend.

In either case your enemy is now dead.

I think the people of that day took it literally, but that was not what God was calling them to do.

The letter killeth but the spirit gives life.

God bless

 

[Soul Searcher]

the law after the letter or after the spirit of the law?

This is the way I look at those things written in the old testament about God commanding people to be stoned and killed etc.

Say God comes into your room today and says kill that man over there as he is your enemy.

Yet you know that God says in His commandment thou shalt not kill.

What do you do? Do you take it literally grap a gun and go blow this enemys head off.

or

Do you go show forth the love of God to your enemy making that enemy God said go kill, your friend.

In either case your enemy is now dead.

I think the people of that day took it literally, but that was not what God was calling them to do.

The letter killeth but the spirit gives life.

God bless

Ah.. good point, could be something there. Perhaps the scribes who wrote the text missunderstood and caused the readers to missunderstand as well?

Have you read the didache? specifically the parts about the way of life and the way of death? If so what is your opinion on it?

 

[Pneuma3]

Ah.. good point, could be something there. Perhaps the scribes who wrote the text missunderstood and caused the readers to missunderstand as well?

Have you read the didache? specifically the parts about the way of life and the way of death? If so what is your opinion on it?

of the didache before brother. What is it? and can I find it on the net?

 

[Soul Searcher]

of the didache before brother. What is it? and can I find it on the net?

It is an early Christian writing also know as the teaching of the 12, I read somewhere that it was considered for the cannon but decided that it did not fit with the other books, forget the exact reason but was reconized by the church as useful for study.. We can see much of what Jesus taught, especially in the sermon on the mount in this text.

Here is a link to a resource page that has three different translations and other links for info

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-hoole.htm

Edit:
Oops wrong link the one above is to one of the translations.. here is the link I meant to add
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.htmll

 

[Henaynei]

Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the L-RD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d?

So does our G-d require more of us than of Himself?

I'm unclear about the connection of the quoted verse and the statement

G-d is not about forcing anything on people.

He clearly explains what the options are and gives each person a free will to chose between the options. He will not force one option or the other.

A woman marries a certain man. They pledge to each other's good and care, the pledge mutual fidelity and life long love (all known to both parties as "part of the bargain."

After a while the man starts playing around. His wife remains faithful and loving, she is patient and kind and forgiving. But the man has decided that fidelity is too great a price and refuses to discontinue his philandering. His mind, body and resources are more often given to others than to his wife.

In fact his mind set is that the rules of marriage are unfairly limiting of his freedom and that if his wife truly loves him and wants what is best for him that his wife should permit him to come and go as he likes and to be physically and emotionally intimate with whom ever he wishes. Actually, it turns out that he always felt that way but agreed to marry to gain the benefits of the relationship but never intended to live within it's perimeters.

There are very few who would encourage this woman to stay in this relationship and in most ways of thinking she would be considered an abused woman.

Hell, minimally defined as permanent separation from G-d, is not something G-d does to people. They do it to themselves. G-d desires that all should chose Him (choosing G-d means pledging fidelity to Him and "playing by His rules," not ours) but He will not force His "affections" on the unwilling. A loving and merciful G-d gives those, whose presence He most earnestly desires and for whom He created and maintained the physical world, for whom He has made deep and great sacrifices, the leeway to make their own choice in the matter rather than forcing His will and desire upon them - THAT is Love.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Soul Searcher]

And what of those who have not heard or do not believe. Can you honestly say they are choosing something that they either don't know about or don't believe exists.

 

[Henaynei]

And what of those who have not heard or do not believe. Can you honestly say they are choosing something that they either don't know about or don't believe exists.

those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe (that is why it is called a "leap of faith" )

as for those who have never heard.... THAT is where the sovereignty and mercy of G-d plays it's greatest part fmpov.....

 

[Pneuma3]

those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe (that is why it is called a "leap of faith" )

as for those who have never heard.... THAT is where the sovereignty and mercy of G-d plays it's greatest part fmpov.....[/quote]


does faith come before belief or after? How can one take a leap of faith before one beleives?


So you are saying that those who never heard of Jesus Christ are better off then those that do?


Man has a will but mans will is not free, we are either servents to sin or servents of Jesus Christ, but either way we serve a master.

 

[Pneuma3]

It is an early Christian writing also know as the teaching of the 12, I read somewhere that it was considered for the cannon but decided that it did not fit with the other books, forget the exact reason but was reconized by the church as useful for study.. We can see much of what Jesus taught, especially in the sermon on the mount in this text.

Here is a link to a resource page that has three different translations and other links for info

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-hoole.htm

Edit:
Oops wrong link the one above is to one of the translations.. here is the link I meant to add
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/didache.htmll

It's funny I already had the home page in my favorites as I came across the site on another board a couple of weeks ago and it looked good, but I have not had a chance to read any of the works meation there yet as I have been reading the Pseudepigrapha by James Charlesworth that we were discussing on another thread. They are large books and will take me awhile to get through them and thats a understatement

But I will take a look at the two articals you meationed and get back to you.

 

[Pneuma3]

Ah.. good point, could be something there. Perhaps the scribes who wrote the text missunderstood and caused the readers to missunderstand as well?

Have you read the didache? specifically the parts about the way of life and the way of death? If so what is your opinion on it?

wrong with it after a quick read , but it does seem to have been written after the gospels as it refers to the Lords prayer as if it was already written in the gospels.

So is it a work of someone expanding on the foundation already laid or should it be concidered a part of the foundation?

That has to be up to the Lord to show for each of us.

I won't reject it out of hand just because it is not included in our cannon but I do not see anymore light written in it then I see already in what is spoken of in the bible we have today. But then again I don't see it as taking away anything from what we have either.

So again I think it is up to the Lord to show whether or not it is part of His foundation.

 

[Henaynei]

those who have heard and yet do not believe, choose to not believe (that is why it is called a "leap of faith" )

as for those who have never heard.... THAT is where the sovereignty and mercy of G-d plays it's greatest part fmpov.....

does faith come before belief or after? How can one take a leap of faith before one believes?

that has been debated for centuries either way my point is valid

So you are saying that those who never heard of Jesus Christ are better off then those that do?

not at all - I'm saying that G-d is sovereign and merciful

Man has a will but mans will is not free, we are either servants to sin or servants of Jesus Christ, but either way we serve a master.

Man has a choice which it is - and G-d, in His mercy, paid a great price and made a way out of slavery to sin , available to every man, instead of leaving us no choice but that bondage.

b'Shalom
Henaynei