Sooo, OneGod, you have discernment/wisdom that those of us who contrue error don't have? Hows come? What did you do that you think we haven't done to get this discernment/wisdom?ONEGod said:
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Would a just and merciful God send most of His creation to an eternal hell?
- Thread starter katallasso
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Soul Searcher said:
a couple of questions. Do you suppose that God in His infinit wisdom, who works everything after the concil of His own will would bring to light in the written word error?
God is not the author of confussion and if the scriptures are in error ( not speaking of some translations) as some of you guys suppose then would not that be confussion?
If the scriptures are error filled what are we to beleive?
Do we get to pick and choose what is and is not inspired according to our own understanding?
Since I have been on these boards I have seen people say there was no virgin birth, Pauls writtings should not be concidered scripture because he differs from James on works and faith and on and on and on.
Just what is it we are to beleive if the bible we have and God allowed us to have is full of errors?
Why beleive any of it?
For myself its all or nothing, but as I see Jesus Christ revealed in them I have to beleive all.
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Havahope said:
I think onegod was just basiclly saying the same thing I did.
We do not see and understand it all either and it is because we lack wisdom and discernment also.
and like onegod says it is depressing to see so many of Gods people call error what they do not understand.
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Havahope said:I don't think anyone has said that they don't believe the words of Jesus. I know for myself I have only said that I doubt that some of the New Testament writings were actually the words of Jesus, i.e. Luke 16:19-31. And I stated good reasoning for as to why I do not believe it.
And as to God's concealing something from my eyes that He has not concealed from yours, I would have to wonder why He would do that.
Do 'ya think He loves you more than He loves me, or what?
Blessings . . . .
Havahope
that you do not beleive Jesus said what He said in Lu.16:19-31.
And yet you have brought forth on this thread a understanding of what those scriptures mean to you.
It is obvious you have taken these scriptures to God in order to understand them and He has given you in part (like all of us our understanding is in part) an understanding of what Jesus was talking about.
Do you beleive God gave you this understanding of the scriptures in question? If so why do you then beleive Jesus did not say those things?
If you have gained light brother why reject those things written that helped you gain that light?
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EchoPneuma
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Soul Searcher said:
Correct. Even if we are to believe that the ORIGINAL manuscripts from the apostles were absolutely perfect, inerrant and infallible....so what? We don't have those anymore and we have no way to KNOW if what we have today even resembles those ORIGINAL manuscripts. What we have today may be really close, somewhat like them, or nothing close to what the originals were.
The oldest existing complete manuscript of the NT dates from the 4th century......hundreds of years after the apostles penned the originals. It's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.....and even in that manuscript (called Codex Sinaiticus) there are variations in the text from other manuscripts (Codex Vaticanus and Codex Recepticus) and the scholars had to just GUESS which one was correct.
This is all explained in the preface to the Revised Standard Version of the bible.
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EchoPneuma said:
I asked SS.
And keep in mind God works everything after the concil of His own will.
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EchoPneuma
Well-Known Member
Pneuma3 said:
P3, I know you didn't address me in this post, but I will try to answer from my perspective.
For over 50 years I have believed that the bible is the inerrant infallible word of God. I was raised fundamentalist Southern Baptist and that is what I was taught and that is what I believed.
I never allowed myself to think outside the box or to question the bible in any way....because in my way of thinking that was akin to questioning God Himself and not having faith.
But then I began to see things that just couldn't be reconciled without doing theological gyrations and having to jump through hoops....which I did for a while....but then I had to just be honest with myself. I began to actually question the bible, realizing that questioning a book was NOT the same thing as questioning GOD. So I began to research, dig, compare, and study in areas that I had never allowed myself to do before. What I found didn't make me happy. I allowed myself to read websites of those who are antiCHristian BECAUSE they say that the bible is riddled with errors. In the past I would have NEVER read anything they had to say....but I figured if the bible really WAS God's book then anything they said wouldn't hold water. So I looked at their arsenal of errors....figuring I'd see a few things that would be hard to explain.
BUt what I saw was page after page of flat out ERRORS and contradictions. THings that I had never seen before because I had been taught NOT to see them. THings that CAN NOT be explained away.
Now keep in mind, if the bible really IS "breathed" by God then it would have to be absolutely perfect....without ONE error of any kind. God WOULD NOT make even a SMALL mistake.
Well, what I saw were some BIG mistakes and errors. Oh, I tried to explain away some of them for a while....like you did with the texts about God provoking David to census one time and Satan doing it another.....as though the bible would REALLY refer to God as "Satan". C'mon P3 you know that's not right? Are we to believe that anywhere else that refers to "Satan" it could also be talking about God?? If so, how would we know when God is being talked about doing something and when it was Satan? What you are doing is the theological gyrations that are necessary to explain away the error. I can't do that anymore
No, what those two passages show is a CONTRADICTION that can't be reconciled. An error. Meaning that it COULD NOT be from God. At least not the bible that we have in our hands TODAY. Maybe the original manuscripts WERE perfect....but there is no way to ever know as they do not exist anymore. What we have today is a book by men....
You ask..."well what are we to believe?" How about believing the word that is written on your heart and mind? Do you need a book to tell you that lying is wrong? Do you need a book to tell you that it's wrong to steal, cheat, commit adultery, murder??
Do you need a book to tell you to call out to God when you need Him?
What we use the "book" for is to judge others BELIEFS and try to make other people BELIEVE the same thing we do about God.
So what if some people don't believe the writings of Paul or think they contradict with James? Are they living by the "word" revealed in their heart by God? So what if some don't believe in the virgin birth? Are they following God in their heart and mind....reaching out to Him for guidance and honoring Him with their life?
Do we not believe that God HIMSELF is big enough to handle the wrong beliefs of those who are following Him without the help of a BOOK?
Anyway, I have come to this place after many many years.....and a difficult journey.....but it's increased my faith IN GOD tenfold. Now, I look at the bible as a book, penned by men, that probably has alot of wisdom in it. I read it with a discerning eye and an open heart to allow God to speak to me concerning it. Knowing that He will confirm in my heart those things that are true.....and put static in my spirit concerning those things that are not true. But I no longer DEPEND on it to guide me and be the standard for belief and practice.
That job rests with GOD ALONE now.
I respect your beliefs and understand them. But please don't assume that because I've come to this conclusion that it means that I'm blinded, haven't studied enough, don't understand the scriptures, don't have wisdom etc etc. This is where I am because this is where the facts took me. There it is.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
Let's not forget that it was men who actually wrote the bible.Pneuma3 said:
Again it was man who wrote the bible.
Jesus said his sheep will know his voice.
Should we instead rely on other men to decide for us what is inspired according to thier own understanding?
There are many opinions, and certianly much confusion, Not only does Paul seem to differ from James but from Jesus as well, yet in one of Pauls writings he does say that it is not the hearers of the law that are just before God but the doers of the law.. so here he would seem to be in agreement with them.
God allowed us to have all kinds of writings some of which are in the book we call the bible but it was man who decided which ones should be there and it was man who decided later that some of them should be removed and man who decided that none should ever be added.
Again Jesus said his sheep know his voice.
There are many things that are written that are said to be from the lips of Jesus which ring true in my heart. There are also many things that are written in the bible that go against these teachings. Do we believe what rings true or do we also believe what rings false or in opposition to what seems good and true?
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We know that this same God, in His infinite wisdom, and who works everything after the council of His own will allowed at least some offences to come. And Jesus said it must needs be that they do come. But He also said, "Woe to them by whom the offences come." So if there be any confusion, it is man made, not God made.pneuma3 said:
Rom. 2: 13. "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.Pneuma3 said:
14. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15. Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )"
If the scriptures were error filled or if there were no scripture at all, then it would be the law which is written in our hearts - that law which is written in the heart of every human being, which would be our guide. This law is written, not with pen and ink, as are the scriptures, but with the "finger" of God.
Consider young children for a moment. They neither read the scripture, nor consider them. Yet Jesus said whosoever humbled himself as a little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Yes. And we do this by our God given ability to think and to reason.pneuma3 said:
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Hi Echo I think it may be a good idea to start a thread concerning those things people are having a hard time with reconciling. I am not apposed to examining the scriptures, you seem to have a lot of issues with what you state cannot be reconciled, I would ask you to post a couple at a time on a new thread (please only one or two at a time) and look at them with the rest of the body. It maybe what you have not been able to reconcile someone else has an answer to.
I agree
Echo I am not going gyrations I do believe God was Israels ADVERSARY here as it states Gods anger was kindled against Israel and He/God moved David to number the people.
The problem most have with God being called satan is because they read the scriptures an think satan only is in reference to the evil one. But that is not so, satan simply means adversary and is not a proper name. The spirit lusteth against the flesh, why? Because they are adversary/satan one to the other. The proper name of the evil one is Beelzebub.
This is easily seen when Jesus said to Peter get thee behind me satan. Was Peter the evil one?
Of course not but he was being adversarial to the will of the Father.
I do not see it as being a contradiction or in error brother so how can you state it cannot be reconciled? You may disagree with what I have given you concerning those verses but you cannot I cannot reconcile them for I have at least to myself and I did not have to go through gyrations to do so. I simply took what we know satan to mean which is adversary and can see how God was in this case Israels adversary. For me this really is not so hard to understand.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Jesus came and fulfilled the scriptures Echo if they are not needed then He had nothing to fulfill.
According to the above scripture the scriptures are given unto us so that we might be made perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Jesus did not do away with the scriptures in the sense people think He did away with them, it was by fulfilling the scriptures that they were done away with. The law that was written in stone is the same law He writes on our hearts and minds. The law is not done away with but is then fulfilled. We need the letter of the law to kill the old man but the spirit of the law gives us life. Same law two different purposes.
The unbelief of some does not make the faith of God without effect.
Even if people do not believe what is written God does and Jesus does or God would not have sent and Jesus would not have come and fulfilled those scriptures.
And yes God is big enough to handle our wrong beliefs without the book, but what He will show those without the book is what is written in it, for all scripture testifies to Jesus Christ.
Echo I put myself into the same class I have put you and everyone else, we all know in part, we all need more wisdom and discernment and knowledge. I am not calling you blind brother anymore then I am blind. I may have a part that you need and you may have the part I need and if we put the parts together we may see things more fully.
You have rejected scripture because you do not understand how they can be reconciled, I believe the scriptures even though I may not be able to reconcile them right now, but I believe God whos ways are higher then mine will in His own good time make plain what I cannot reconcile. For me I simply cannot throw them out because I cannot reconcile them, for me it would be like telling God that because I do not understand Him He is in error.
I am not trying to put any of you guys who believe the scriptures to be in error down brother I am trying in my own stumbling way to tell you guys to hold onto what you do not understand until understanding comes.
Echo look at it this way, for along time you could not reconcile the scriptures with UR, but now you cannot reconcile the scriptures with eternal torment.
Did the scriptures change or did your understanding of them change?
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That is just my point, Pneuma. There is nothing to understand in Luke 16:19-31. I have considered all of the explanations that I have ever read concerning these passages of scripture. None of them ring true for me. I do not believe that Jesus ever, ever compromised the truth, nor was He ever inconsistent in what He taught, not by parable or otherwise. I believe that an integral part of Christ's mission here on this earth was to destroy the myths and misconceptions of man concerning the true and the living God, and to teach the truth in their stead. Luke 16:19-31 reeks with such myths and misconceptions about the true and the living God. i.e. Being carried to Abraham's bosom by angels when one dies as the Jews believed is not truth but it is a lie that came from the imagination of man. That one goes to a place called Hades when they die, is not truth, but again it is a lie concocted by the vain imagination of man. I don't believe Jesus ever told a half truth. Do you?Pneuma3 said:
The particular passages that I have said I reject gave me no light whatsoever. That is why I reject them!Pneuma3 said:
P.S. I am a "sister" not a "brother"
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SS man put it to pen but God wrote it.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I agree man made the descided of what is cannon that we have, but that does not mean that what we have is in error. There propably should be more added to the scriptures but that does not do away with the ones we now have.
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Havahope said:That is just my point, Pneuma. There is nothing to understand in Luke 16:19-31. I have considered all of the explanations that I have ever read concerning these passages of scripture. None of them ring true for me. I do not believe that Jesus ever, ever compromised the truth, nor was He ever inconsistent in what He taught, not by parable or otherwise. I believe that an integral part of Christ's mission here on this earth was to destroy the myths and misconceptions of man concerning the true and the living God, and to teach the truth in their stead. Luke 16:19-31 reeks with such myths and misconceptions about the true and the living God. i.e. Being carried to Abraham's bosom by angels when one dies as the Jews believed is not truth but it is a lie that came from the imagination of man. That one goes to a place called Hades when they die, is not truth, but again it is a lie concocted by the vain imagination of man. I don't believe Jesus ever told a half truth. Do you?
The particular passages that I have said I reject gave me no light whatsoever. That is why I reject them!
P.S. I am a "sister" not a "brother"
You do beleive it is a parable right?
Are not parables dark sayings hard to be understood?
I don't know if this will help you to understand the parable we are speaking on sis
but read the parable given in Mark 4 for all parables speak from the starting point of this parable.Mark 4:13
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Did you read what eby wrote concerning this parable? I have only read two articals by him this just happens to be one of them and he has some good thoughts on it.
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NO!Pneuma3 said:You do beleive it is a parable right?
Are not parables dark sayings hard to be understood?
I don't know if this will help you to understand the parable we are speaking on sis
Mark 4:13
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Did you read what eby wrote concerning this parable? I have only read two articals by him this just happens to be one of them and he has some good thoughts on it.
I do not believe it was a parable that Jesus made.
I don't know how much clearer I can make my position in this matter.
But as to how or why it became attached to, or embedded in Luke's record is anyone's guess.
But obviously someone did author the story.
Here is an extract from a writing of Flavius Josephus', a first century Jew, and a Pharisee, which reflects the prevailing view of the Jews at that time, concerning Hades.
1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.
3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.
4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.
5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.
6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: CONCERNING WHOM WE HAVE ELSEWHERE GIVEN A MORE PARTICULAR ACCOUNT, FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO SEEK AFTER TRUTH. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, JUST IS THY JUDGMENT; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it he hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.
Now my only question would be as to where Josephus and the rest of his fellows got this belief. Did they have Spirit breathed scripture to support it? If they did, then surely they had access to scripture and writings to which we do not have.
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EchoPneuma
Well-Known Member
P3, just remember that ANYTIME the NT mentions the "scriptures" it is only talking about the OT scriptures....not the NT writings.
But even among the OT writings there is discrepancy. In the Dead Sea Scrolls they found two different versions of the book of Jeremiah. One is shorter than the other. Which one is right? Scholars have compared both versions with the Septuagint and have found that the shorter one is the same.....but we have the LONGER one in our bibles today. Meaning we have the INCORRECT one in our bibles.
The bible IS NOT an inerrant infallible book from God. It was penned by men and put together by men....and has mistakes made by men in it.
I'm not saying throw it out because of this.....but be wise enough to look at it with open eyes and a discerning heart.....allowing God in your HEART to be the artiber of what is true.
I believed in eternal punishment for the very reason that I DID NOT study it deeply because I listened to what MEN taught me. Once I examined it CLOSELY myself I saw what it really said.
I believed the bible was inerrant and infallible for the very reason that I believed what MEN taught me. I did not examine it closely myself....once I did I saw what it really said. I understand you saying that our knowledge is partial and just wait because God can reveal things in time.......but there are some things that just can't be reconciled no matter how long we wait.
The only thing that could reconcile some things is for God Himself to come into my living room and say to me "Now look Echo.....I said some things that totally contradict each other. It makes no sense. Just believe that I contradict myself sometimes and have a reason to let errors into the bible."
But I don't believe God would ever say a thing like that. He DOES NOT contradict Himself or make even SMALL errors.
YOu want a small error P3? One that can't be reconciled. One that is black and white?
Here's one.....
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." (22 years old)
vs.
II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." (42 years old)
or this.....
Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." (Already crucified at the 3rd hour)
vs.
John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him." (Still being tried at the 6th hour)
Now one of those is a relatively simple mistake in numbers. But it is a MISTAKE nonetheless. Ahaziah couldn't have been BOTH 22 and 42 when he began to reign. They CONTRADICT.
The other on is a little more important because it's the time of day that Jesus was crucified. Either He was ALREADY crucified by the 3rd hour of the day or He was still being TRIED at the 6th hour of the day. It can't be both. That is quite a discrepancy in time.
YOu may say "well what's the big deal? So there's a little discrepancy in the time or a little discrepancy in numbers?" But didn't we agree that if it was GOd's book that there could not be even a SMALL mistake of any kind? That God wouldn't make even a SMALL error?
But there are two right there......
But even among the OT writings there is discrepancy. In the Dead Sea Scrolls they found two different versions of the book of Jeremiah. One is shorter than the other. Which one is right? Scholars have compared both versions with the Septuagint and have found that the shorter one is the same.....but we have the LONGER one in our bibles today. Meaning we have the INCORRECT one in our bibles.
The bible IS NOT an inerrant infallible book from God. It was penned by men and put together by men....and has mistakes made by men in it.
I'm not saying throw it out because of this.....but be wise enough to look at it with open eyes and a discerning heart.....allowing God in your HEART to be the artiber of what is true.
I believed in eternal punishment for the very reason that I DID NOT study it deeply because I listened to what MEN taught me. Once I examined it CLOSELY myself I saw what it really said.
I believed the bible was inerrant and infallible for the very reason that I believed what MEN taught me. I did not examine it closely myself....once I did I saw what it really said. I understand you saying that our knowledge is partial and just wait because God can reveal things in time.......but there are some things that just can't be reconciled no matter how long we wait.
The only thing that could reconcile some things is for God Himself to come into my living room and say to me "Now look Echo.....I said some things that totally contradict each other. It makes no sense. Just believe that I contradict myself sometimes and have a reason to let errors into the bible."
But I don't believe God would ever say a thing like that. He DOES NOT contradict Himself or make even SMALL errors.
YOu want a small error P3? One that can't be reconciled. One that is black and white?
Here's one.....
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." (22 years old)
vs.
II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." (42 years old)
or this.....
Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him." (Already crucified at the 3rd hour)
vs.
John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him." (Still being tried at the 6th hour)
Now one of those is a relatively simple mistake in numbers. But it is a MISTAKE nonetheless. Ahaziah couldn't have been BOTH 22 and 42 when he began to reign. They CONTRADICT.
The other on is a little more important because it's the time of day that Jesus was crucified. Either He was ALREADY crucified by the 3rd hour of the day or He was still being TRIED at the 6th hour of the day. It can't be both. That is quite a discrepancy in time.
YOu may say "well what's the big deal? So there's a little discrepancy in the time or a little discrepancy in numbers?" But didn't we agree that if it was GOd's book that there could not be even a SMALL mistake of any kind? That God wouldn't make even a SMALL error?
But there are two right there......
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
I must disagree with that assertion. Man wrote it. He was inspired by God and liekly did the best he could to explain it as he understood it yet it was not God that wrote it. The verse says all scripture is profitable, the word scripture refering to any written work or perhaps any religious written work. And this is true all religous writing is profitable for doctorine and reproof but that does not make them inerrant.Pneuma3 said:
You are correct it does not mean that they are in error, it also does not mean that they are not.
What do you think about the verses in Jerimiah where it talks of the false pen of the scribes, impling that the law was recorded falsely? Or the part where he says that God did not talk to thier fathers concerning burnt offerings?
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#481
Yesterday, 01:37 PM
Havahope
Regular Member
07:44 PM
Quote
Originally Posted by: ONEGod
I certainly have to agree with some of the posters. That which is construed to be error, is only read without any discernment/wisdom. The compatibility of what was said seems clear enough to me.
This is getting depressing.
Sooo, OneGod, you have discernment/wisdom that those of us who contrue error don't have? Hows come? What did you do that you think we haven't done to get this discernment/wisdom?
ONEGod:
Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you.
Isn't it interesting that those that have succummbed to the author of confusion find God must be in error ? ? ? Some say the scripture is irreconcilable while others believe it makes sense just fine. Who would be the ones that are right with God ? The confused or the unconfused ? It really isn't so hard to tell.
How can we believe the bible since it was written thousands of years ago or written by men ?? DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE EITHER SUPERCEDES GOD ? ? ? My God supercedes them and a lot more, (yours should too). Jesus came to fulfill the LAW, NOT DESTROY IT ! Who do ytou think seeks to discredit the Bible, those of God or those against ? (Wolves in sheep's clothing)
Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Matthew 6:32-33 (King James Version)
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Odd to have to mention to seek the Lord, NOT seek to Judge the Lord or His Word of being in error.
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 (King James Version)
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Matthew 24:23-25 (King James Version)
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
The warnings are solemn and clear enough, and this is the times.
Numbers 15:39
And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them ; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
It has been argued that Judgment Day and the consequences of eternal death do not exist mainly because it is not what some want, it is also argued that the Bible is not the Word or Will of God, which of course leaves a person to live as they so please/do as they want. as Sodom & Gomorrah was wont to say; Do as seems good unto you. I will not fall into that deception. They did as so pleased them didn't they ? I've figured out how that ends, shouldn't you ?
Yesterday, 01:37 PM
Havahope
Regular Member
07:44 PM
Quote
Originally Posted by: ONEGod
I certainly have to agree with some of the posters. That which is construed to be error, is only read without any discernment/wisdom. The compatibility of what was said seems clear enough to me.
This is getting depressing.
Sooo, OneGod, you have discernment/wisdom that those of us who contrue error don't have? Hows come? What did you do that you think we haven't done to get this discernment/wisdom?
ONEGod:
Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given unto you.
Isn't it interesting that those that have succummbed to the author of confusion find God must be in error ? ? ? Some say the scripture is irreconcilable while others believe it makes sense just fine. Who would be the ones that are right with God ? The confused or the unconfused ? It really isn't so hard to tell.
How can we believe the bible since it was written thousands of years ago or written by men ?? DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE EITHER SUPERCEDES GOD ? ? ? My God supercedes them and a lot more, (yours should too). Jesus came to fulfill the LAW, NOT DESTROY IT ! Who do ytou think seeks to discredit the Bible, those of God or those against ? (Wolves in sheep's clothing)
Deuteronomy 4:29
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Matthew 6:32-33 (King James Version)
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek
for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Odd to have to mention to seek the Lord, NOT seek to Judge the Lord or His Word of being in error.
2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 (King James Version)
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Matthew 24:23-25 (King James Version)
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
The warnings are solemn and clear enough, and this is the times.
Numbers 15:39
And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them ; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
It has been argued that Judgment Day and the consequences of eternal death do not exist mainly because it is not what some want, it is also argued that the Bible is not the Word or Will of God, which of course leaves a person to live as they so please/do as they want. as Sodom & Gomorrah was wont to say; Do as seems good unto you. I will not fall into that deception. They did as so pleased them didn't they ? I've figured out how that ends, shouldn't you ?
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
Are you sure about this? If any here have been arguing that judgment day does not exist I have not saw these posts.ONEGod said:
Eternal death implies that one simply dies and stays dead forever, no pain, no awareness, just dead. but that is not what we have been talking about here is it?
What we have been arguing against is a judgment that tosses nonbelievers [or anyone for that matter] into some torture chamber where they will suffer without mercy for trillions and trillions of years and still not even a drop in the ocean compared to the suffering they have yet to endure. It is without a doubt the most barbaric doctorine that has ever been conceived by man.
Not what some want? I would certianly hope that it is not something anyone would want.
The bible.. or more accurately the Gospel according to John says that the "Word" was made flesh, referring of course to Jesus. Nowhere in the bible [that I am aware of] does it make the claim the "book" is the word of God. In fact it was men who decided which books were inspired and which they should include in the bible.
The will of God as stated in scripture is that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. He is not willing that any should perish.
Yet here you are insisting that not everyone will be saved and many will in fact perish and you scold those who would support this will about the will of God
So does it not seem good to you to obey the commandments? It does to me. Does it seem good to you to torture people for eternity? Doesn't seem so good to me.
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I don't know, OneGod. There is something about your reply that brings the following passages to my mind:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
And then the following scriptures come to mind also:
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."
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#498
Today, 12:02 PM
Soul Searcher
Senior Veteran
45
Quote
Originally Posted by: ONEGod
It has been argued that Judgment Day and the consequences of eternal death do not exist
Soul Searcher
Senior Veteran
45
Are you sure about this? If any here have been arguing that judgment day does not exist I have not saw these posts.
ONEGod:
Lets see if i can explain to you simply enough, i did not seperate with a comma to confuse the issue.
It has been argued that Judgment Day WITH consequences of eternal death do not exist. The Bible much disdains the scribe and Pharisee approach, who even end up judging God. They judged Jesus in Jesus time as of error as the do even now the Bible. Full of themselves, but not God.
Soul Searcher
Senior Veteran
45
So does it not seem good to you to obey the commandments? It does to me. Does it seem good to you to torture people for eternity? Doesn't seem so good to me.
ONEGod:
Alright, I'll play your game, where did "I" say i think it good to torture people for eternity ? Seems good to me to see things God's Way, NOT my willful way.
#499
Today, 02:02 PM
Havahope
Regular Member
I don't know, OneGod. There is something about your reply that brings the following passages to my mind:
ONEGod:
There IS SOMETHING in my reply, its called scripture, didn't you notice ? It's called God's Word, God's Will, God's Way its much expressed in the Bible that's why i much quote it, isn't it obvious ? Of course many despise sound doctrine.
Proverbs 9:8-9 (King James Version)
8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 (King James Version)
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
ONEGod:
Sound doctrine/The Bible has been chaffing the willful since the time it was written, no surprise there. Charity to the gone astray is no charity at all, recognising that the wages of sin is DEATH, or didn't you know that ?
Today, 12:02 PM
Soul Searcher
Senior Veteran
45
Quote
Originally Posted by: ONEGod
It has been argued that Judgment Day and the consequences of eternal death do not exist
Soul Searcher
Senior Veteran
45
Are you sure about this? If any here have been arguing that judgment day does not exist I have not saw these posts.
ONEGod:
Lets see if i can explain to you simply enough, i did not seperate with a comma to confuse the issue.
It has been argued that Judgment Day WITH consequences of eternal death do not exist. The Bible much disdains the scribe and Pharisee approach, who even end up judging God. They judged Jesus in Jesus time as of error as the do even now the Bible. Full of themselves, but not God.
Soul Searcher
Senior Veteran
45
So does it not seem good to you to obey the commandments? It does to me. Does it seem good to you to torture people for eternity? Doesn't seem so good to me.
ONEGod:
Alright, I'll play your game, where did "I" say i think it good to torture people for eternity ? Seems good to me to see things God's Way, NOT my willful way.
#499
Today, 02:02 PM
Havahope
Regular Member
I don't know, OneGod. There is something about your reply that brings the following passages to my mind:
ONEGod:
There IS SOMETHING in my reply, its called scripture, didn't you notice ? It's called God's Word, God's Will, God's Way its much expressed in the Bible that's why i much quote it, isn't it obvious ? Of course many despise sound doctrine.
Proverbs 9:8-9 (King James Version)
8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 (King James Version)
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
ONEGod:
Sound doctrine/The Bible has been chaffing the willful since the time it was written, no surprise there. Charity to the gone astray is no charity at all, recognising that the wages of sin is DEATH, or didn't you know that ?
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