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Would a just and merciful God send most of His creation to an eternal hell?

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PastorMikeJ

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Havahope said:
IMO, sending someone to an eternal hell such as some believe hell to be, and not stopping one from going there, when they have the power and the means to prevent it, would be the same thing.
that might be if He hadn't given us free will...free will to choose heaven over hell...He won't force us to love Him...it has to be a choice...if He forced us to love Him by preventing us from going to hell then people would be shouting that He violated my will!! I didn't want to love Him but He forces people to by making the choice for us...That is why He gave us the freedom to choose so that no one could say that the only reason we love Him is because He makes us..

So it is left up to us to either choose to love Him by accepting Jesus as our Savior and worshipping Him or not and walk willingly into hell..It is your choice..exercise your free will...and accept the responsibility of you choice...quit trying to blame Him for your own failure...

In other words take responsibility for your actions!!! which is something new in this world we now live in...it use to be the way of life but now we have to blame someone for our failures...so why not blame God...instead of yourselves...
 
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Havahope

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Uphill Battle said:
then the answer would be yes, if the choice is given, and rejected.
"Choice given, and rejected". That takes care of the justice part as far as man's inferior eyes can see it. But where is the mercy?

And does God who is all wise and all powerful Himself, leave such an important thing as this to the choice of feeble man?

Jesus taught, "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Man teaches, "Repent ye, for eternal hell is at hand. "
 
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PastorMikeJ

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Havahope said:
"Choice given, and rejected". That takes care of the justice part as far as man's inferior eyes can see it. But where is the mercy?

And does God who is all wise and all powerful Himself, leave such an important thing as this to the choice of feeble man?

Jesus taught, "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Man teaches, "Repent ye, for eternal hell is at hand. "
The mercy is the fact that He doesn't release His Justice on us!!! That He gives us His mercy...

Jesus was right Repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...but don't repent and it is hell... so repent and love God or don't love God and suffer the results... your choice...very very simple....end of discusion..take care and be happy..

See ya in heaven maybe....
 
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red77

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MikeJ said:
The mercy is the fact that He doesn't release His Justice on us!!! That He gives us His mercy...

Jesus was right Repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...but don't repent and it is hell... so repent and love God or don't love God and suffer the results... your choice...very very simple....end of discusion..take care and be happy..

See ya in heaven maybe....

Somehow I see God's mercy and love being a tad bigger than this, man seems to want to restrict it to a set of dogmatic rules at times unfortunately..............
 
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Havahope

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MIKEJ said:
that might be if He hadn't given us free will...free will to choose heaven over hell...He won't force us to love Him...it has to be a choice...if He forced us to love Him by preventing us from going to hell then people would be shouting that He violated my will!! I didn't want to love Him but He forces people to by making the choice for us...That is why He gave us the freedom to choose so that no one could say that the only reason we love Him is because He makes us..

So it is left up to us to either choose to love Him by accepting Jesus as our Savior and worshipping Him or not and walk willingly into hell..It is your choice..exercise your free will...and accept the responsibility of you choice...quit trying to blame Him for your own failure...

In other words take responsibility for your actions!!! which is something new in this world we now live in...it use to be the way of life but now we have to blame someone for our failures...so why not blame God...instead of yourselves...
"Free will to choose heaven over hell". - I don't think so. For if that be the case, man would have every right to stand up and say to God, - "Hey God! I don't want to go either place. So I demand that you offer an alternative to these two places."
MIKEJ said:
The mercy is the fact that He doesn't release His Justice on us!!! That He gives us His mercy...
But that only takes care of those who you say are not going to hell. Where is the mercy for those who you say are going to hell?

MIKEJ said:
Jesus was right Repent ye for the kingdom of heaven is at hand...but don't repent and it is hell... so repent and love God or don't love God and suffer the results... your choice...very very simple....end of discusion..take care and be happy..

See ya in heaven maybe....
Jesus taught: "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is a hand."
Man adds: "but don't repent and it is hell." Who gives man the authority to add to what Jesus said?
 
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Uphill Battle

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Havahope said:
"Choice given, and rejected". That takes care of the justice part as far as man's inferior eyes can see it. But where is the mercy?

And does God who is all wise and all powerful Himself, leave such an important thing as this to the choice of feeble man?

Jesus taught, "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Man teaches, "Repent ye, for eternal hell is at hand. "
you underline the kingdom of heaven, and ignore the "Repent ye".
 
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EchoPneuma

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No Christian universalist IGNORES "repent ye"....it is necessary to be born again and enter the kingdom and necessary to avoid an "age" in "hell" being tested and purified by God.

Why do those who believe in an eternal punishment IGNORE Jesus clear statement that if He be lifted up He WILL draw ALL MEN unto Himself?
 
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timlamb

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EchoPneuma said:
No Christian universalist IGNORES "repent ye"....it is necessary to be born again and enter the kingdom and necessary to avoid an "age" in "hell" being tested and purified by God.

Why do those who believe in an eternal punishment IGNORE Jesus clear statement that if He be lifted up He WILL draw ALL MEN unto Himself?
There is nothing biblical about an age in hell being tested and purified by God, the test is whether you love the Lord, the purification is Jesus sacrifice. All men who lift Him up are drawn unto Him.
If He only gave us one chance to repent it would be more than we deserve. We have every second of life to repent.
God is looking for love in us, not obedience. We should love enough to desire obedience in our selves. God wants our hearts, given willingly.
 
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Havahope

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Uphill Battle said:
you underline the kingdom of heaven, and ignore the "Repent ye".
Because I didn't underline "repent" doesn't mean I was ignoring it. I also underlined "eternal hell". Underlining and bolding the print was my way of stressing the difference between what Jesus taught and what men are now teaching.

God "commands all men everywhere to repent." That is scripture. It comes from the 17th chapter of Acts where the apostle Paul preached the gospel to the pagan philosophers at Mars Hill. And imagine this: he did not make one mention of eternal torment in that whole discourse to them. At least that ought to make you wonder, if eternal hell is supposed to be a part of preaching the good news, why would this man who was called of Jesus Christ himself, leave out something so important as this?
 
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PastorMikeJ

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Havahope said:
"Free will to choose heaven over hell". - I don't think so. For if that be the case, man would have every right to stand up and say to God, - "Hey God! I don't want to go either place. So I demand that you offer an alternative to these two places."

But that only takes care of those who you say are not going to hell. Where is the mercy for those who you say are going to hell?


Jesus taught: "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is a hand."
Man adds: "but don't repent and it is hell." Who gives man the authority to add to what Jesus said?
Jesus also said: " I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no man can come to the Father but through Me"

But still it is your choice...you can choose to follow Jesus and gain Heaven or you can choose not to and gain hell.....your choice...

Take care and have a good life...this thread is just going in circles so there is no point to continue with it..God Bless you...
 
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EchoPneuma

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timlamb said:
There is nothing biblical about an age in hell being tested and purified by God,

Sure there is. "Aionios" means "for an age".
Brimstone means "God's purifying incense".
Torment means "to be tested for purity".
Hell is "Gehenna" which is a place of fire....which in the bible is used of God's judgement and purification.

It's VERY biblical.

the test is whether you love the Lord, the purification is Jesus sacrifice.

Let's see what the bible says shall we?

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

1 John 3:3
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

So according to these scriptures, purification is:

Acts 15:9 - by faith
1 Pet 1:22 - done by ourselves, by obeying the truth and loving others
1 John 1:9 - by confession of sins
2 Cor 7:1 - by getting rid of everything that contaminated body and spirit.
1 John 3:3 - by ourselves.

THen we have this one:

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

This says only IF we "walk in the light" does the blood of Jesus purify us from sin. How many so called "Christians" do you know who don't "walk in the light"? It doesn't say "have faith" to be purified. It says to "walk in the light".

THe PROPITIATION was Jesus sacrifice. The PURIFICATION is another matter.


All men who lift Him up are drawn unto Him.

That's not what the scripture says. It doesn't say "all men who lift him up are drawn" That is something you just made up. It says "IF I be lifted up (and He was, this was referring to the TYPE of death He was to suffer) I WILL draw ALL MEN unto Myself".

Big difference!

If He only gave us one chance to repent it would be more than we deserve. We have every second of life to repent.

And every second of the afterlife as well. It is the "eternal" gospel isn't it? Jesus did go and preach the GOSPEL to those who were DEAD didn't He? Didn't Paul tell the Athenians that God now commands all men EVERYWHERE to repent? Isn't "hell" part of EVERYWHERE? Are you saying that if someone in "hell" repents that God won't show mercy? When the bible clearly says that "mercy triumphs OVER judgement". Are you saying that GOd will cast off those souls in "hell" for eternity, when the bible says that God WILL NOT cast off forever, but WILL show mercy?


God is looking for love in us, not obedience. We should love enough to desire obedience in our selves. God wants our hearts, given willingly.

THe bible says "obedience is better than sacrifice".

God wants EVERY heart.....and WILL have it. We limit God when we say He is not capable of working repentance in ALL MEN and drawing ALL MEN unto Himself....and once a man is drawn to God through repentance.....love is the result because spiritual blindness is gone.
 
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EchoPneuma

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MikeJ said:
Jesus also said: " I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no man can come to the Father but through Me"

ANd universal salvation says no different. ALL MEN WILL come to the Father through Jesus Christ. Paul says that it is God's WILL that ALL MEN be saved "and come to a knowledge of the truth". Well, if Jesus IS TRUTH. THen ALL MEN will come to a knowledge of Him. God WILLS it and it WILL happen.

But still it is your choice...you can choose to follow Jesus and gain Heaven or you can choose not to and gain hell.....your choice...

This is partially true. Yes, if you believe in Jesus IN THIS LIFE, then you gain the kingdom and go straight into the presence of the Father upon death. If you choose not to repent and have faith in CHrist, you are sent to "hell" for "an age" of purification and chastisement unto repentance.

However, the ULTIMATE destiny of ALL MANKIND is up to the sovereign will of the Father....and He WILLS that ALL MEN be saved. ...even if they have to go through the fires of "hell" to get there.

We know this because the bible says that "God works ALL THINGS OUT in conformity with the purpose of HIS WILL.

He WILL "work it out".....even if our limited understanding and vision can't see how. We MUST let Him out of the box. He is so much greater than we give Him credit...and Has done so much more than we understand. :bow:

Take care and have a good life...this thread is just going in circles so there is no point to continue with it..God Bless you...

Same to you....blessings.
Echo
 
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katallasso

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Please, will some of you nay sayers please explain these scripture to me if it doesn't mean what it says?

1Cr 15:19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:20But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:21For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And also this one;

Rom 5:16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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timlamb

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EchoPneuma said:
Sure there is. "Aionios" means "for an age".
Brimstone means "God's purifying incense".
Torment means "to be tested for purity".
Hell is "Gehenna" which is a place of fire....which in the bible is used of God's judgement and purification.

It's VERY biblical.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MY ANSWERS;
1) I am not going to get into the "Age" thing with you, ages will end with earth, as we know it. Measuring time is for mans benifit.
2) According to webster, random house, and my bible dictionary, brimstone means a sulfurous rock, nothing more.
3) I find no definition of torment as you discribe either.
4) Gehenna is mentioned nowhere as a fire of purification, unless you think child sacrifice is some sort of purification. Or the burning of bodies and trash purifies. It is primarily thought of as a place for eternal burning of the dead.

Purification is only possible for salvation through the sacrificial blod of Jesus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let's see what the bible says shall we?

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
ANSWER: WHEN NOT TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT IT DISCRIBES HOW GOD MAKES NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN GENTIAL OR JEW WHO HAS FAITH IN CHRISAT JESUS FOR SALVATION

1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
ANSWER: THE TRUTH BEING HOPE AND FAITH IN GOD AND THE RISEN SAVIOR.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
ANSWER: IN CONFESSING OUR SIN TO JESUS HE FORGIVES US AND PURIFIES US TO BE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD

2 Corinthians 7:1
Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
ANSWER: THE SAME AS SAYING LET US STOP SINNING; ABSOLUTELY WHAT WE SHOULD BE STRIVING FOR.

1 John 3:3
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
ANSWER: OUT OF CONTEXT AGAIN. VERSE 2 SAYS ".. BUT WE KNOW THAT WHEN HE APPEARS, WE SHALL BE MADE LIKE HIM, ..." SO ANYONE WHO HAS HOPE IN JESUS WILL BE MADE PURE BY THAT HOPE.

So according to these scriptures, purification is:
----ANSWERS IN CAPS-----
Acts 15:9 - by faith - ABSOLUTELY
1 Pet 1:22 - done by ourselves, by obeying the truth and loving others - SHOULD BE SRIVED FOR
1 John 1:9 - by confession of sins - ABSOLUTELY
2 Cor 7:1 - by getting rid of everything that contaminated body and spirit. - ABSOLUTELY
1 John 3:3 - by ourselves. WRONG, BY OUR FAITH (OUR HOPE IN CHRIST) WE ARE MADE PURE

THen we have this one:

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

This says only IF we "walk in the light" does the blood of Jesus purify us from sin. How many so called "Christians" do you know who don't "walk in the light"? It doesn't say "have faith" to be purified. It says to "walk in the light".
ANSWER: OH COME ON NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE LIGHT IS? THE "LIGHT" IS THE TRUTH OF JESUS CHRIST. YOU DON'T WALK IN THE LIGHT WITHOUT FAITH.

THe PROPITIATION was Jesus sacrifice. The PURIFICATION is another matter.
ANSWER: THAT IS A DANGEROUS STATEMENT. WE DO NOT HAVE PURIFICATION WITHOUT THE PROPITIATION OF JESUS.
"NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME"



That's not what the scripture says. It doesn't say "all men who lift him up are drawn" That is something you just made up. It says "IF I be lifted up (and He was, this was referring to the TYPE of death He was to suffer) I WILL draw ALL MEN unto Myself".

Big difference!--ANSWER: BIG MISTAKE
IF I LIFT UP (EXHALT) JESUS, I WILL BE DRAWN TO HIM.
THOSE WHO DO NOT EXHALT JESUS, WILL NOT BE DRAWN TO HIM.



And every second of the afterlife as well. It is the "eternal" gospel isn't it? Jesus did go and preach the GOSPEL to those who were DEAD didn't He?
ANSWER: NO, HE DIDN'T, HE PREACHED TO THE DEAD WHILE THEY WERE LIVING. A COMMON UNIVERSALIST MIS INTERPRETATION.
Didn't Paul tell the Athenians that God now commands all men EVERYWHERE to repent? Isn't "hell" part of EVERYWHERE? ANSWER: NO! THIS EVERYWHERE MEANT JEWS AND GENTILES AND ALL MEN OF THE EARTH.
Are you saying that if someone in "hell" repents that God won't show mercy?
ANSWER: I AM SAYING NO ONE WILL REPENT IN HELL. NO ONE WILL GO TO HELL LOVING GOD AND THEY WON'T LEARN TO LOVE HIM THERE.
When the bible clearly says that "mercy triumphs OVER judgement". Are you saying that GOd will cast off those souls in "hell" for eternity, when the bible says that God WILL NOT cast off forever, but WILL show mercy?
ANSWER: GOD WILL EXTEND MERCY TO THOSE WHO DESIRE MERCY, AND IT WILL LAST FOREVER. YOU DREAM OF EVERYONE DESIRING MERCY, GOD WOULD LOVE THAT, BUT HE KNOWS IT WON'T HAPPEN.
YOU EITHER LIVE ETERNALY IN GOD'S PRESENCE (HEAVEN) OR WITHOUT GOD (HELL).





THe bible says "obedience is better than sacrifice".

God wants EVERY heart.....and WILL have it. We limit God when we say He is not capable of working repentance in ALL MEN and drawing ALL MEN unto Himself....and once a man is drawn to God through repentance.....love is the result because spiritual blindness is gone.
ANSWER: EVEN SOME OF THE ANGELS REBELLED WITH LUCIFER. IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF GOD'S CAPABILITY; WHAT DID GOD CREATE? hE CREATED MEN, NOT PUPPETS.
GOD WILL NOT DRAW UNRIGHTEOUSNESS TO HIMSELF.
YOU HAVE NO SALVATION, PURITY, OR RIGHTEOUSNESS, WITHOUT REPENANCE AND FAITH.
IF WE ALL WENT TO HEAVEN, JOHN WOULD HAVE SAID "REJOICE" NOT "REPENT" THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND.

SORRY, YOU HAVE TO READ THE CAPS IN THE BUBBLE FOR MY ANSWER
 
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timlamb

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timlamb said:
John 1:10-12;
"He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to that which was His own, but His own did not recieve Him. Yet to all who recieved Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God."

You seem to think that all creation will someday recieve Jesus, given enough time. The bible says that won't happen, and all you have to do is look at this world to believe it. Hatered for Christianity is growing.
The earth will be destroied by fire, and a new heaven and earth will follow. A new home of love for the children of God, those who hate us will not be invited.


!st John 3:1 "How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called the children of God! and that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him."

!st John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves His children as well."

There is a clear seperation between the children of God and the world, "His sheep know His voice"
There is no biblical basis to believe that everyone repents, no matter how long you give them.
God will burn up His creation, His children will be saved.

To answer your question, He says He will, and I believe Him; He has His plan, and I trust Him.

NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO THIS, SO I THOUGHT I WOULD BRING IT UP AGAIN, MAYBE YOU MISSED IT
 
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timlamb

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katallasso said:
Please, will some of you nay sayers please explain these scripture to me if it doesn't mean what it says?

1Cr 15:19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Cr 15:20But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Cr 15:21For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Cr 15:23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And also this one;

Rom 5:16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Come on Kat, we've been through all those. Put them in context not only with surrounding scriprure, but with who wrote them, to whom, and why. If you seek truth the answer is there.
I care about you Kat, if I thought you really didn't understand I would work with you. but these are just the favorite scriptures to be misused to be decieving.
You think there is no eternal judgement. God was ready to distroy all creation when he found Noah living righteously, walking with God. All men were capable of knowing and following God, Noah was the only one who chose to. So Noah and his family were spared and mankind got a fresh start.
And as in the days of Noah, people will continue to sin and do evil right up to the last. And judgement will come. God delays to give all a chance. No man will stand in judgement and rightly say, but I would have loved you had I known.
 
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Pneuma3

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timlamb said:
ANSWER: EVEN SOME OF THE ANGELS REBELLED WITH LUCIFER. IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF GOD'S CAPABILITY; WHAT DID GOD CREATE? hE CREATED MEN, NOT PUPPETS.
GOD WILL NOT DRAW UNRIGHTEOUSNESS TO HIMSELF.
YOU HAVE NO SALVATION, PURITY, OR RIGHTEOUSNESS, WITHOUT REPENANCE AND FAITH.
IF WE ALL WENT TO HEAVEN, JOHN WOULD HAVE SAID "REJOICE" NOT "REPENT" THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND.

SORRY, YOU HAVE TO READ THE CAPS IN THE BUBBLE FOR MY ANSWER
GOD WILL NOT DRAW UNRIGHTEOUSNESS TO HIMSELF

The I guess no one will be saved for the scriptures state there is none righteous no not one.
 
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Pneuma3

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timlamb said:
Come on Kat, we've been through all those. Put them in context not only with surrounding scriprure, but with who wrote them, to whom, and why. If you seek truth the answer is there.
I care about you Kat, if I thought you really didn't understand I would work with you. but these are just the favorite scriptures to be misused to be decieving.
You think there is no eternal judgement. God was ready to distroy all creation when he found Noah living righteously, walking with God. All men were capable of knowing and following God, Noah was the only one who chose to. So Noah and his family were spared and mankind got a fresh start.
And as in the days of Noah, people will continue to sin and do evil right up to the last. And judgement will come. God delays to give all a chance. No man will stand in judgement and rightly say, but I would have loved you had I known.
Yes God destroyed the old world that was and we see Jesus entering into the prison houses of those that were disobediant in the days of Noah and leading those that were captive out of the prison.
 
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