Would a Christian considered a Jew?

PrettyboyAndy · Jun 24, 2016

A born again believer has been grafted in. Would they be considered a Jew? Why or why not?

Romans 11:11-24
Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

In light of the above referenced passage, would a gentile believer be considered a Jew?

Dave-W · Jun 24, 2016

We are grafted into the stock of Israel, but we are not Jews.

Just as a branch from a lemon tree that is grafted into an orange tree will still grow lemons; we have different expressions and fruit. But both are fed from the rich root of the Hebrew Prophets and scriptures. (BTW - the entire NT was written by Jews as well, with the possible exception of Luke/Acts)

JM · Jun 24, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
A born again believer has been grafted in. Would they be considered a Jew? Why or why not?

We are spiritual Jews. By faith we have inherited the spiritual promises made to national Israel.

CodyFaith · Jun 24, 2016

Gentiles are not Jews. You can be a Christian Jew (The term "Jew" btw is tricky as there were other tribes of Israelites who were lost and weren't "Jewish" because they were lost. The Israelites were seperated by two parts, Judah and Israel, and Judah was the only part of Israel that survived. Other Israelites back then joined to Judah, like Mordecai who was a Benjamite but a Jew, or Paul who too was a Benjamite and Jew). Not many people are aware there is a difference.

In any case, Gentiles are not Israelites. Israelites are descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob, Gentiles are not.

JM · Jun 24, 2016

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Gal. 3

CodyFaith · Jun 24, 2016

JM said:
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Gal. 3

You still have to be descended from Jacob and one of the 12 though, in order to be considered a Jew, and more specifically you have to have been joined to Judah/still are joined to Judah.

You can't be a Gentile and be a Jew.

CodyFaith · Jun 24, 2016

I guess a good way to look at it is to look at the gospels. Jesus still referred to those who weren't true Jews as Jews. A true Jew is inward.

JM · Jun 24, 2016

CodyFaith said:
Jesus still referred to those who weren't true Jews as Jews. A true Jew is inward.

A true Jew is a Jew inwardly. That is what I posted.

Judaism today is a false, idolatrous religion.

PrettyboyAndy · Jun 24, 2016

So than we are the true Jews then? Inward or Spiritual Jew?

CodyFaith · Jun 24, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
So than we are the true Jews then? Inward Jew?

From my understanding, no. Paul makes a distinction between Jews and Gentiles throughout scripture as being two separate things.

An inward Jew is one who is both from my understanding. You were born a part of the tribe of Judah, but you are circumcised of the heart (aka a Christian) and worship Christ.

I see no other way of interpreting this.

JM · Jun 24, 2016

Dispensationalists like to claim there is a distinction and, at times you may find one, but you must consider the context of passage. In Romans 2 Paul teaches that one is Jewish by heart circumcision (Jer. 31) and not by the physical circumcision made with hands.

A true Jew is a Jew by God's calling.

Soyeong · Jun 24, 2016

CodyFaith said:
Gentiles are not Jews. You can be a Christian Jew (The term "Jew" btw is tricky as there were other tribes of Israelites who were lost and weren't "Jewish" because they were lost. The Israelites were seperated by two parts, Judah and Israel, and Judah was the only part of Israel that survived. Other Israelites back then joined to Judah, like Mordecai who was a Benjamite but a Jew, or Paul who too was a Benjamite and Jew). Not many people are aware there is a difference.

In any case, Gentiles are not Israelites. Israelites are descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob, Gentiles are not.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Gentiles were once alienated from Israel, but through faith in Messiah, are now fellow citizens of Israel and have become part of God's chosen people, Israel.

Soyeong · Jun 24, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
A born again believer has been grafted in. Would they be considered a Jew? Why or why not?

Romans 11:11-24
Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[a] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Gentiles become part of Israel through faith in Messiah without needing to become Jews. Paul made it clear that Gentiles should not seek to become Jews:

1 Corinthians 7:17-24 Only let each person lead the life[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant[d] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants[e] of men. 24 So, brothers,[f] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.

CodyFaith · Jun 24, 2016

Soyeong said:
Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Gentiles were once alienated from Israel, but through faith in Messiah, are now fellow citizens of Israel and have become part of God's chosen people, Israel.

Alright, I'm new to Christianity and come from a background of going to convert to Judaism, I also have a problem with containing my tongue. But even if they are considered Israel, I doubt they are considered Jews. I also stand that Israelites, by the definition, are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Hence when Jesus came and said "an Israelite in whom is no fault" or however He said it to the Israelite.

Soyeong · Jun 24, 2016

CodyFaith said:
Alright, I'm new to Christianity and come from a background of going to convert to Judaism, I also have a problem with containing my tongue. But even if they are considered Israel, I doubt they are considered Jews. I also stand that Israelites, by the definition, are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Hence when Jesus came and said "an Israelite in whom is no fault" or however He said it to the Israelite.

Fair enough. I am in agreement that we can be part of Israel without being Jews. While Israel had its roots in Abraham, it was not just descendants of Abraham who went up out of Egypts, but according to Exodus 12:38, a mixed multitude also went up with them who affiliated themselves with Israel. So I think it is best to think of Israel as everyone who fits under the heading of "God's chosen people", which includes people who were not descendants of Abraham who have affiliated themselves with God.

MWood · Jun 25, 2016

I would refer all of you to Gal. 3:28.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female....all are one in Christ Jesus.
There is no distinction...for God sees us all as one.

twin1954 · Jun 25, 2016

MWood said:
I would refer all of you to Gal3:28.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female....all are one in Christ Jesus.
There is no distinction...for God sees us all as one.

United to Christ we are all as He is in this world. 1 John 4:17

98cwitr · Jun 26, 2016

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

^^^That's my answer. The longer I live, the more I see value in labels, but understand they are nothing more than a way for us to may assumptions based on them. Labels lead to over-generalizations and stereotypes at best, and total bigotry at worse.

Soyeong · Jun 26, 2016

98cwitr said:
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

^^^That's my answer. The longer I live, the more I see value in labels, but understand they are nothing more than a way for us to may assumptions based on them. Labels lead to over-generalizations and stereotypes at best, and total bigotry at worse.

There very clearly are people who are Jews, Gentiles, slaves, free, males, and females, and furthermore the Bible refers to people as such. This verse is not denying the use of these labels, but rather Paul was speaking against the idea that any of these labels implied a special status in regard to being one in Christ. For instance, there were Jews who mistakenly thought they were saved simply because they were Jews because it is written that all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26, Isaiah 45:17), so they thought they had a special status over Gentile believers.

Dave-W · Jul 12, 2016

JM said:
Judaism today is a false, idolatrous religion.

You call Messianic Judaism "false?"

Would a Christian considered a Jew?

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