Worthiness

[Cassiopeia]

Hi Casi,

I hope you don't mind me chiming in.

Maybe I am the only one that sees a distinction, but it seems to me like you changed the question. First you asked if repentance helps one to be more worthy, and now you seem to be asking if it is necessary for salvation. I don't believe that they are the same thing.

I've also learned on this board that the term repentance does not hold the same meaning for all. I believe that repentance is a turning from our sin to God. LDS on this board have said that repentance includes paying for our sin. I believe that we must turn from our sin in order to turn to God, but turning from our sin isn't what makes one worthy. It is the righteousness of Christ that makes one worthy... through His sacrifice.

Hi Skylark1

I don't mind at all. I realize this is confusing because this is such a cloudy issue for me. Let me see if I can tell you why for me. Back in the day...OH i am so old now. I attended a church called the Free Evangelical Church, and they told me that you didn't even have to repent to be worthy of the blessings of salvation. That as long as you claim Christ to be your Saviour that you are worthy of being saved by grace...ie the blood of Christ.

Let us set aside LDS discussion here for a moment because yes I am aware of that doctrine. I am trying to sort this out in my mind. So...does it matter if you are sorry for what you did ? Or is it just that you believe in Christ that makes you worthy? And no I am not bringing this up to quote an apposing view. I geninuely want to know what this means, worthiness. I have heard all my life we are not worthy of anything because we are all sinners. Evil unrepentant sinners and only by the grace of God are we saved. It just makes a little uneasy. I am not sure if I can explain it any better. I just want a clear distinction so I can think about it and see how that feels to me.

Respectfully,
Casi

 

[Beoga]

So you don't feel that repentence has any part of this? I just am wondering because all my life no matter what faith I attended it was said that we are called upon to repent. I understand your belief about the Blood of Christ. What about repentence, where does it fit in? Is it necessary or not? This is the part I get confused about in any faith. Because if Jesus paid the price for my and that is all that can save me, why must I repent and of what?

Sorry for what might seem simple answers but for me personally it is not.

Peace be with you,
Casi

Lets see if i can explain it accurately.
Christ purchased salvation on the cross for his people/believers. It is only through Christ's propiation on the cross that can save us, it is the only thing that does. Because Christ has paid for the sins of his people, He gives them grace, because of this grace we repent. It is only because of God's grace that we repent, if he had not given that to us, we would not repent. Repentance comes from God. Repentance is a pleasing act to God,it is something that is righteouss/good and since man cannot do good:
Romans 3:12 "no one does good, not even one."
repentance has to come from God.

 

[fatboys]

Lets see if i can explain it accurately.
Christ purchased salvation on the cross for his people/believers. It is only through Christ's propiation on the cross that can save us, it is the only thing that does. Because Christ has paid for the sins of his people, He gives them grace, because of this grace we repent. It is only because of God's grace that we repent, if he had not given that to us, we would not repent. Repentance comes from God. Repentance is a pleasing act to God,it is something that is righteouss/good and since man cannot do good:
Romans 3:12 "no one does good, not even one."
repentance has to come from God.

FB: Christ did not purchase salvation, he purchased our transgressions which opens up the opportunity for salvation. True that only through the atonement we can be saved from our transgressions. Repentance means that you recognize something you have done wrong. God has nothing to repent from. A person can change for the better without having any knowledge of God. Changing for the better is what we call repentance, or no longer committing a particular sin. So in because we have many different types of sins, we can repent from a sin, and still be a sinner. We just sin less than before by overcoming one of the sins or the breaking of the laws that we were breaking before. Repentance comes from our action in overcoming sin. It does not come from God controlling us to no sin.

It is true that repentance is pleasing to God for it shows our commitment to obedience and following his laws.

 

[Rescued One]

FB: Christ did not purchase salvation, he purchased our transgressions which opens up the opportunity for salvation. True that only through the atonement we can be saved from our transgressions. Repentance means that you recognize something you have done wrong. God has nothing to repent from.

God brings us to repentance.

A person can change for the better without having any knowledge of God. Changing for the better is what we call repentance, or no longer committing a particular sin.

Your sinful nature is still there; you still have no assurance of salvation. Your works are still filthy rags.

John 15
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So in because we have many different types of sins, we can repent from a sin, and still be a sinner. We just sin less than before by overcoming one of the sins or the breaking of the laws that we were breaking before. Repentance comes from our action in overcoming sin. It does not come from God controlling us to no sin.

We cannot stop sinning apart from Christ. And to stop some sins won't make us right before God. The only way to be righteous is to never have sinned or to accept Christ's payment for our sins.

Revelation 5
9 And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals, because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.

1 Corinthians 7
23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Corinthians 6
20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

 

[Beoga]

FB: Christ did not purchase salvation, he purchased our transgressions which opens up the opportunity for salvation. True that only through the atonement we can be saved from our transgressions. Repentance means that you recognize something you have done wrong. God has nothing to repent from. A person can change for the better without having any knowledge of God. Changing for the better is what we call repentance, or no longer committing a particular sin. So in because we have many different types of sins, we can repent from a sin, and still be a sinner. We just sin less than before by overcoming one of the sins or the breaking of the laws that we were breaking before. Repentance comes from our action in overcoming sin. It does not come from God controlling us to no sin.

It is true that repentance is pleasing to God for it shows our commitment to obedience and following his laws.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

don't know why you made the statement that God doesn't need to repent from anything

so if we can repent without God, aren't we do something that is pleasing to God?
If we can repent and change for the better, why do we need Christ (to change us into a new creation)?

 

[skylark1]

Hi Skylark1

I don't mind at all. I realize this is confusing because this is such a cloudy issue for me. Let me see if I can tell you why for me. Back in the day...OH i am so old now. I attended a church called the Free Evangelical Church, and they told me that you didn't even have to repent to be worthy of the blessings of salvation. That as long as you claim Christ to be your Saviour that you are worthy of being saved by grace...ie the blood of Christ.

I have visited a Free Evangelical Church before, and that was not the message that I heard. I'm not questioning your experience, but mine differed I don't know which of our experiences were the anomaly.

Let us set aside LDS discussion here for a moment because yes I am aware of that doctrine. I am trying to sort this out in my mind. So...does it matter if you are sorry for what you did ? Or is it just that you believe in Christ that makes you worthy?

I don't believe that one can come to God unless they turn from their sins, from following their own way, and turn to Him. I do not believe that we can only repent because Jesus has paid for our sins. I don't think that it is my belief in Christ that makes me worthy. I believe that it is His righteousness, His worthiness that is imputed. When we come to Christ, we are not to simply accept Him as our Saviour, but also as our Lord.

And no I am not bringing this up to quote an apposing view. I geninuely want to know what this means, worthiness. I have heard all my life we are not worthy of anything because we are all sinners. Evil unrepentant sinners and only by the grace of God are we saved. It just makes a little uneasy. I am not sure if I can explain it any better. I just want a clear distinction so I can think about it and see how that feels to me.

I must have lived a sheltered life. I have not heard all of my life that we are evil unrepentant sinners. I think that sometimes we tend to try to look at our standards as God's standards. If we have sinned, we have fallen short, and need a Savior to reconcile us with God. I believe that people were capable of repenting before Jesus paid for our sins. The OT is full of examples.

A comment was made by someone earlier about believing that they were a worthless sinner. I do not believe that we are worthless. I don' believe that God would send His only begotton Son to die for those who he considered to be worthless. Because I am a sinner, I do not consider myself to be worthy, but eternally grateful for God's love, mercy, and grace.

 

[Cassiopeia]

I have visited a Free Evangelical Church before, and that was not the message that I heard. I'm not questioning your experience, but mine differed I don't know which of our experiences were the anomaly.


I don't believe that one can come to God unless they turn from their sins, from following their own way, and turn to Him. I do not believe that we can only repent because Jesus has paid for our sins. I don't think that it is my belief in Christ that makes me worthy. I believe that it is His righteousness, His worthiness that is imputed. When we come to Christ, we are not to simply accept Him as our Saviour, but also as our Lord.


I must have lived a sheltered life. I have not heard all of my life that we are evil unrepentant sinners. I think that sometimes we tend to try to look at our standards as God's standards. If we have sinned, we have fallen short, and need a Savior to reconcile us with God. I believe that people were capable of repenting before Jesus paid for our sins. The OT is full of examples.

A comment was made by someone earlier about believing that they were a worthless sinner. I do not believe that we are worthless. I don' believe that God would send His only begotton Son to die for those who he considered to be worthless. Because I am a sinner, I do not consider myself to be worthy, but eternally grateful for God's love, mercy, and grace.

Thank you so very much for your comforting post. Keep in mind my experiences at the Free Evangelical Church was not said during services...but during a bible study group and I was about 16 I think. Back in those days the attitude was that we are despicable sinners and worthless. That is why I didn't keep going there.

I am relieved to hear such a kindly message about this issue. Thank you again.

Peace be with you,
Casi

 

[Rescued One]

Romans 5
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

No one can come to Christ having accomplished sinlessness, but God in His mercy forgives us and imputes the righteousness of Christ to us.

Romans 4
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Psalm 34
18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalm 51
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

\0/Praising God for his mercy and grace\0/​

 

[Cassiopeia]

Psalm 34
18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalm 51
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Beautiful reassuring scriptures.

 

[Rescued One]

Beautiful reassuring scriptures.

(((((Casi)))))

 

[calgal]

Hi Casi,

I hope you don't mind me chiming in.

Maybe I am the only one that sees a distinction, but it seems to me like you changed the question. First you asked if repentance helps one to be more worthy, and now you seem to be asking if it is necessary for salvation. I don't believe that they are the same thing.

I've also learned on this board that the term repentance does not hold the same meaning for all. I believe that repentance is a turning from our sin to God. LDS on this board have said that repentance includes paying for our sin. I believe that we must turn from our sin in order to turn to God, but turning from our sin isn't what makes one worthy. It is the righteousness of Christ that makes one worthy... through His sacrifice.

Sky:

Good points. Repentance is a result of the new heart and new life in Christ, not a work to get there.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Gwit, you missed the whole point of my analogy.

hhhmmm, that seems to happen when when you try to make an unbiblical point. Those who know God's Word seem to know better and don't take the bait.

Better luck with your next analogy.

 

[MormonFriend]

Casiopeia[/b]]Do you believe that repentance helps you to be more worthy or just the grace of God?

"What can wash away my sins? NOTHING but the Blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? NOTHING but the Blood of Jesus."

How can one be washed and cleansed if they are still in the mud?

 

[MormonFriend]

Hi Casi, ...

LDS on this board have said that repentance includes paying for our sin. ...

Can you quote the LDS who said this? We cannot pay for our sins, because the offense, and debt to be satisfied, pertains to all of creation, and the laws and order which keeps creation in tact. If it is possible for us to recompense our actions of sin, that is to restore what was lost, damaged, or offended, we must do so to make the repentance genuine. If I stole something, and apologized and promised to never do it again, but I did not return that which I stole, then my repentance was not genuine. Such a repentance would not be "worthy."

 

[MormonFriend]

Gwit, you missed the whole point of my analogy.

... that seems to happen when when you try to make an unbiblical point. Those who know God's Word seem to know better and don't take the bait.

You missed the point as well. What the analogy pertains to is how God's Word is known and understood. My point is ... (and read this as neutral, in that it pertains to me as much as to you) ... if someone believes they understand the Bible, but doesn't realize and/or recognize their misunderstandings, and another person is trying to present the true meanings and teachings, the person who misunderstands cannot compare the correct perspective to their false perspective, and reject it on that basis. The whole picture must be considered to see where and how a particular piece fits in.

 

[MormonFriend]

Actually I think it is your analogy that doesn’t work with the gift that we receive from God. We are not given a gift we can’t use unless we learn how to use it first.

Your perspective stems from the idea that the gift is already given. My perspective stems from the idea that the gift is offered and we must make a choice to receive it. Since our resurrected body is part of the gift of eternal life, we have not yet received it. In the meantime, we have this mortal body, which I likened to a flight similator. It gives us the advantage of being able to make errors, that otherwise would have been fatal, because of the atonement of Christ.

We are given a gift that we learn to use as we grow.

Suppose a person refuses to learn for one reason or another, what then?

 

[calgal]

How can one be washed and cleansed if they are still in the mud?

Sorry to hear that your gods leave you where they find you. That they do not pull you out of the mire. For the record, Repentance is NOT a work that gets one into heaven or a better spot therein. It is a fruit displayed only AFTER salvation by Grace Alone. I pray you mormons can find the true King of Kings and Lord of Lords someday.

 

[Rescued One]

The whole picture must be considered to see where and how a particular piece fits in.

Ah, but Mormons tear the finished puzzle apart, throw in all kinds of pieces that don't fit, and then try to force all the pieces into one big puzzle.

 

[Rescued One]

It gives us the advantage of being able to make errors, that otherwise would have been fatal, because of the atonement of Christ.

A major problem with Mormonism is its inability to recognize sin for what it is. This is not a place to practice sanctification. You must receive the new birth now, in this life, for after this the judgment. No, our "errors" are not okay. They are sin. We are without excuse.

How can one be washed and cleansed if they are still in the mud?

Man can't climb out of the mud with a ladder! Jesus lifts us out!

Psalm 40: 2

He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

 

[Beoga]

Sorry to hear that your gods leave you where they find you. That they do not pull you out of the mire. For the record, Repentance is NOT a work that gets one into heaven or a better spot therein. It is a fruit displayed only AFTER salvation by Grace Alone. I pray you mormons can find the true King of Kings and Lord of Lords someday.

so very true