Worth fighting for

[Xeno.of.athens]

Worth fighting for.

That's the thread title and topic, but it needs some explanation.

By fighting, I mean fighting with words. No violence of any kind is encouraged here.
By worth, I mean something that is intrinsically important enough to make a debate, discussion, or argument worthwhile.
By for, I mean to advocate, defend, support, and otherwise promote as truth revealed by God or truth implied as a consequence of what God has revealed.

So, what is worth fighting for in Christian Forums?

We take the Nicene Creed as a given (sans the filioque), so we will not be going down the path that leads to denial of any of the doctrines expressed in the creed.

But some things implied by the creed are a matter of interpretation and some will fight for and against particular interpretations.

And after the fighting will any change their mind? That's a mystery, who can say for sure.

Will there be healthy learning, one hopes so.

To start things off,

1. I believe in one God,
   the Father almighty,
   maker of heaven and earth,
   of all things visible and invisible.
2. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
   the Only Begotten Son of God,
   born of the Father before all ages.
   God from God, Light from Light,
   true God from true God,
   begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
   through him all things were made.
   For us men and for our salvation
   he came down from heaven,
   and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
   and became man.
   For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
   he suffered death and was buried,
   and rose again on the third day
   in accordance with the Scriptures.
   He ascended into heaven
   and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
   He will come again in glory
   to judge the living and the dead
   and his kingdom will have no end.
3. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
   who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
   who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
   who has spoken through the prophets.
4. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
   I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
   and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
   and the life of the world to come.
5. Amen.

Is the filioque, the part that says "and the son" that is struck through in the creed as shown, important, and if you think it is why is it important, either to be untstruck or to be completely removed?

 

[Bob Crowley]

I've never really understood the filioque controversy. As far as I'm concerned it's one big ecclesiastical bunfight.

History of the filioque controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Another attempt at reunion was made at the fifteenth-century Council of Florence, to which Emperor John VIII Palaiologos, Ecumenical Patriarch Joseph II of Constantinople, and other bishops from the East had gone in the hope of getting Western military aid against the looming Ottoman Empire. Thirteen public sessions held in Ferrara from 8 October to 13 December 1438 the Filioque question was debated without agreement. The Greeks held that any addition whatever, even if doctrinally correct, to the Creed had been forbidden by the Council of Ephesus, while the Latins claimed that this prohibition concerned meaning, not words.[105]

It boils down to an intrepretation of what comprises an addition to the Nicene Creed.

As far as I'm concerned the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son. They're all in it together.

Whom Does the Holy Spirit Proceed From? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: Whom Does the Holy Spirit Proceed From?

www.blueletterbible.org

Church hierarchies can be petty at times.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I've never really understood the filioque controversy. As far as I'm concerned it's one big ecclesiastical bunfight.

History of the filioque controversy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It boils down to an intrepretation of what comprises an addition to the Nicene Creed.

As far as I'm concerned the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son. They're all in it together.

Whom Does the Holy Spirit Proceed From? by Don Stewart

Don Stewart :: Whom Does the Holy Spirit Proceed From?

www.blueletterbible.org

Church hierarchies can be petty at times.

There is a time for everything. Not that this is such a situation, but there is a need for even apparently petty accuracy in doctrinal statements, for several reasons. One of them is when it may not seem important, until someone uses what was said to imply things that those who said it had not intended.

 

[BobRyan]

Worth fighting for.

That's the thread title and topic, but it needs some explanation.

By fighting, I mean fighting with words. No violence of any kind is encouraged here.
By worth, I mean something that is intrinsically important enough to make a debate, discussion, or argument worthwhile.
By for, I mean to advocate, defend, support, and otherwise promote as truth revealed by God or truth implied as a consequence of what God has revealed.

So, what is worth fighting for in Christian Forums?

We take the Nicene Creed as a given (sans the filioque), so we will not be going down the path that leads to denial of any of the doctrines expressed in the creed.

But some things implied by the creed are a matter of interpretation and some will fight for and against particular interpretations.

And after the fighting will any change their mind? That's a mystery, who can say for sure.

Will there be healthy learning, one hopes so.

To start things off,

1. I believe in one God,
   the Father almighty,
   maker of heaven and earth,
   of all things visible and invisible.
2. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
   the Only Begotten Son of God,
   born of the Father before all ages.
   God from God, Light from Light,
   true God from true God,
   begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
   through him all things were made.
   For us men and for our salvation
   he came down from heaven,
   and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
   and became man.
   For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
   he suffered death and was buried,
   and rose again on the third day
   in accordance with the Scriptures.
   He ascended into heaven
   and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
   He will come again in glory
   to judge the living and the dead
   and his kingdom will have no end.
3. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
   who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
   who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
   who has spoken through the prophets.
4. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
   I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
   and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
   and the life of the world to come.
5. Amen.

Is the filioque, the part that says "and the son" that is struck through in the creed as shown, important, and if you think it is why is it important, either to be untstruck or to be completely removed?

I know many people who have changed denominations because they did some Bible study.
The NT is full of cases where former Jews, former Pagans etc - became Christian because of Bible study.
Millions of Protestants were slain because of issues that are involved in this topic.
Millions of Christians were slain before that - for taking a stand for Christ and pure doctrine - in contrast to pagan Rome and unchristian Jewish groups as Paul points out in 1 Thess 2.

And they then spread that good news (good doctrine) to friends and family.

In Acts 17:11 the supposedly infallible magesterium of the Nation Church of the Jews started by God at Sinai with infallible scripture and a priesthood -- had decided to condemn the Christian doctrine of Paul. Yet in that verse we see believers in Judaism - converting to Christianity by "searching the scriptures".

Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

When confronted with some of the doctrinal errors of the One True nation Church started by God at Sinai - here is what Christ said -

Mark 7:
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

 

[BobRyan]

As far as I'm concerned the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and Son. They're all in it together.

One God Deut 6:4 in Three Persons Matt 28:19

All of them eternal - from eternity past,
None of them have an origin/point in time, start point
None of them are "derived" from another. They are infinite God, 3 person but one God

"God" is a higher form, a higher state of being , a higher term , than "person". We are all persons, we are not all God.

Having said that - God is infinite - His existence, essence , person cannot be fully comprehended or explained or jammed into a test tube or a formula.

I choose not to fight over the efforts of certain men to dig into that infinite realm and try and distill it much further than we find in Deut 6:4 and Matt 28:19 -- people are welcome to quibble over their own creative ways to imagine it further - but I think there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[Clare73]

Worth fighting for.

That's the thread title and topic, but it needs some explanation.

By fighting, I mean fighting with words. No violence of any kind is encouraged here.
By worth, I mean something that is intrinsically important enough to make a debate, discussion, or argument worthwhile.
By for, I mean to advocate, defend, support, and otherwise promote as truth revealed by God or truth implied as a consequence of what God has revealed.

So, what is worth fighting for in Christian Forums?

We take the Nicene Creed as a given (sans the filioque), so we will not be going down the path that leads to denial of any of the doctrines expressed in the creed.

But some things implied by the creed are a matter of interpretation and some will fight for and against particular interpretations.

And after the fighting will any change their mind? That's a mystery, who can say for sure.

Will there be healthy learning, one hopes so.

To start things off,

1. I believe in one God,
   the Father almighty,
   maker of heaven and earth,
   of all things visible and invisible.
2. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
   the Only Begotten Son of God,
   born of the Father before all ages.
   God from God, Light from Light,
   true God from true God,
   begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
   through him all things were made.
   For us men and for our salvation
   he came down from heaven,
   and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
   and became man.
   For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
   he suffered death and was buried,
   and rose again on the third day
   in accordance with the Scriptures.
   He ascended into heaven
   and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
   He will come again in glory
   to judge the living and the dead
   and his kingdom will have no end.
3. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
   who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
   who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
   who has spoken through the prophets.
4. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
   I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
   and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
   and the life of the world to come.
5. Amen.

Is the filioque, the part that says "and the son" that is struck through in the creed as shown, important, and if you think it is why is it important, either to be untstruck or to be completely removed?

Well, the only Biblical support for that is Rev 22:1, from a book of symbolic prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8), subject to interpretation.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well, the only Biblical support for that is Rev 22:1, from a book of symbolic prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8), subject to interpretation.

Is Revelation 22:1 so obscure and dark?

And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.​

Revelation 22:1
John Wesley wrote thus about the verse:

And he showed me a river of the water of life - The ever fresh and fruitful effluence of the Holy Ghost. See Eze 47:1-12; where also the trees are mentioned which "bear fruit every month," that is, perpetually. Proceeding out of the throne of God, and of the Lamb - "All that the Father hath," saith the Son of God, "is mine;" even the throne of his glory.​

Do you think he might be right?

 

[Clare73]

Is Revelation 22:1 so obscure and dark?

And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.​

Revelation 22:1 - John Wesley wrote thus about the verse:
And he showed me a river of the water of life - The ever fresh and fruitful effluence of the Holy Ghost. See Eze 47:1-12; where also the trees are mentioned which "bear fruit every month," that is, perpetually. Proceeding out of the throne of God, and of the Lamb - "All that the Father hath," saith the Son of God, "is mine;" even the throne of his glory.
Do you think he might be right?

I think that textual evidence is very strong, and if I had to vote yes or no, I would have to vote yes.

 

[BobRyan]

Is Revelation 22:1 so obscure and dark?

And he shewed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.​

Revelation 22:1
John Wesley wrote thus about the verse:

And he showed me a river of the water of life - The ever fresh and fruitful effluence of the Holy Ghost. See Eze 47:1-12; where also the trees are mentioned which "bear fruit every month," that is, perpetually. Proceeding out of the throne of God, and of the Lamb - "All that the Father hath," saith the Son of God, "is mine;" even the throne of his glory.​

Do you think he might be right?

I think he is mistaken

 

[ViaCrucis]

In the Lutheran tradition we sometimes speak of the idea of in statu confessionis, "in a state of confession". Where, ordinarily, something might be described as adiaphora, a matter of indifference, there may arise under certain circumstances where something normally adiaphora becomes a matter of confession.

Clerical vestments aren't an essential matter. We have them because there really isn't a reason to do away with them, and they are beneficial because they designate the minister as the minister of God's Word and Sacraments within the context of the Liturgy. And outside of the Liturgy, clerical collars are helpful indicators that someone is a minister. But they aren't essential, we would not be sinning against God if we didn't have them. But if a Christian from another denomination or tradition says "Vestments are wrong", I would defend them. I would be bound by conscience to affirm and confess that the wearing of vestments are good and beneficial.

When something becomes a matter worthy of confession, then we must honor conscience and defend it.

-CryptoLutheran