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Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by charlesj, Mar 3, 2002.

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  1. charlesj

    charlesj Member

    (I have "cut & pasted" this from a larger writing that I have done.)

    :wave: Worship:

    There are three forms of worship that we don’t want to find ourselves:

    A. Vain worship.
    Matthew 15:6-9
    6 he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
    8 ”‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    9 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are but rules taught by men.’” NIV

    B. Ignorant worship.
    Acts 17:23
    23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. NIV

    C. Will-worship.
    Colossians 2:18,23
    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. KJV

    The worship of the church of Christ has been designed by God and revealed in His Word. This design is sufficient to satisfy man’s inner desire to express that worship. We can even worship Him through the study of His Word. God seeks those that will worship Him in Spirit and Truth.

    John 4:23-24
    23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. KJV

    We must all bow our knees to Him, through His Son, through His Word. Praise His Name!

    The New Covenant writings open and closes with the same admonition to all: “Worship God.” God revealed Himself to men everywhere “that they should seek God.”
    Acts 17:24-28
    24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. KJV

    When man at an earlier date rejected that revelation given in natural law, moral law, and written law, he plunged into the revolting excesses of idolatry and reaped the consequences of his own willful perversion.
    Paul speaks of this:
    Romans 1:25
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.KJV

    Today, we can look around us and see the same kind of perversion. Paul warned that after he left:

    Acts 20:28-30
    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. KJV

    Paul was speaking to the elders of a church at this time. In the second century, just after Paul’s departure, you can read the writings of those leaders(?) of that time and see the changes taking place. Man changed the design of the church, worship, and titles etc. etc. Men are called Reverend, Pastor, Father, etc. etc. Their false titles and works are legion.

    I have taken this (Worship) from a “part of a larger writing” that I did. I titled the larger writing “Pattern of New Testament Christianity” and it deals with the government of the church as set up in the New Covenant by our Lord Jesus. If you want a copy of this writing, please send me a private email and let me know where I can email it.
    The church of our Lord has certainly changed from the first century when Jesus set it up.

    Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Didymus

    Didymus can t spell--can t type

    Yes it certainly has and I don think for the better. We have developed a shoppers attitude. By that I mean that if we don t like where we are we go somewhere else instead of trying to work out the problems and strengthen the body we are in. Many people in my area don t even live in the communities where they attend church. My husband is one.
    I hate adressing the leader as pastor or whatever. weare all equal in God s eyes . I also feel women should be aloowed to speak in a service. I also feel that sermons that go on for more then 20 minutes are too long. I have to take notes or I forget what was said and sometimes I can t figure out what the point was.
    Thank you for your post.
  3. charlesj

    charlesj Member


    "Pastor" is a term mis-used by denominations. Most people refer to their preacher as a "pastor." The word "pastor" is always in the plural in the Greek and means "elder." Not all preachers are elders, but all elders are preachers.
    The church (local body of believers) are overseen by elders. Today you have one man, usually referred to as a "pastor" and he
    alone oversees his flock. This is an error and is not the way Christ
    set up the government of the church. Send for my full study on Pattern of New Testament Church.
    Also, there are places in the church that women can work. They are not to be in the pulpit.

    your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
  4. Didymus

    Didymus can t spell--can t type

    I disagree with women not being allowed to preach. I have known several godly excellent bible teachers who have been women. I would rather have a woman in the pulpit preaching the gospel correctly then a man who wasn t.
  5. RayNay714

    RayNay714 Worshiper and Seeker

    Why can't women be in the pulpit?
  6. charlesj

    charlesj Member

    I am leaving town for about four days. When I get back, I will address your question. A good question.

    thank you,
    your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
  7. RayNay714

    RayNay714 Worshiper and Seeker

    Ok...I am interested in hearing your reply. Thank you.

    Until All Have Heard,
  8. charlesj

    charlesj Member


    Today you see women involved more and more in things they didn't do in the past, which I think is great.
    You question deserves an answer. We see our culture changing all the time. Culture does play a part in the application of Scripture always. But it doesn't change specific requirements or specific things that the Bible forbids. For example, culture changes how we carry out the great commission to carry the gospel into the whole world. But it doesn't change the requirement to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. It doesn't change the fact that "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." (Mark 16:15-16).

    Culture has changed many things with regard to women in the church. But there are some specific requirements that culture can never change if we are to follow God and His word. He clearly states in I Corinthians 14:34,35 that women are to keep silent in the church in the sense of preaching. If you note the context this was about the preaching of the word, not just saying something in the service. Women are not allowed that place in the worship. It's not a cultural matter. Paul states this is "As also says the law." Women have all kinds of places of leadership in the church they can fill and be the servants God calls them to be. But they cannot be preachers of the word and follow God's regulations. It's clear as can be.

    Also, with regard to elders as the qualities are given in I Timothy three and Titus one they are to be the husbands of one wife whose wives and children are to follow their leadership. Obviously a woman can't fulfill that requirement. The passage starts, "If a man desires to be an elder". No this was not a cultural matter. It is a matter of God's plan. The truth is, if we change God's plan for culture on this or any other matter where there is a clear regulation then we are rejecting the authority of God and setting up culture as the authority.

    Culture should have all kinds of power when it comes to how we carry out matters of judgment and expediency. But when it relates to matters in which God has spoken and given clear statements of truth, our place is simply to listen and follow what He has said.

    I will try to spend a little more time on this subject when I get back. Send me a private email and give me your email address and I will send you a writing on "Pattern of New Testament Christianity." This writing deals with the church and how God has set up the government of the church.

    thanks for your question,
    your servant in Messiah,
  9. Catchup

    Catchup Active Member

    I humbly disagree with your opinion against women who have a calling from God to preach the word.

    I would be very interested in any passage that you can find in scripture where God or Jesus... tells of this requirement of a *****.

    These are the words of Jesus….

    John 4 :23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

    Jesus was actually speaking to a women at this time… something his disciples could not understand.

    John 4 :272Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman.

    Jesus not only spoke with her but revealed himself to he…

    25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
    26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

    Tell me do you really believe God wanted her to be silent on what she knew of Jesus? That is not what happened…

    39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers.

    Another example that God does not only speak thru men

    Matthew 28: 5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples

    Tell me if only men are allowed to convey a message from God…Would it not have been possible for the angel to find a man to deliver this most wonderful message?

    So could you explain your position? Tell me do you think that a spirit is a sexual being? Do you belief that the soul of women can not contain the Holy Spirit? Or that the Holy Spirit does not speak to women ?

    Joel 2: 29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    Or maybe just that the Holy Spirit within them is to be silenced ? I pray it is not the latter.

    Mark 7 :7 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are but rules taught by men.
    8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

    I will not deny the fact that I prefer a man as a leader of the church. But to say that my earthly preference toward a male pastor was ordained by God…. I don’t think so ! How much do we miss when we place Earthly limits on our God ?

    :clap: LOVE
  10. zamar

    zamar Member

    What about those who are in Christ are not male or female bond, or free, jew, or greek?

    The idea that women are not to preach is not a biblical idea. It is a denominational idea.

  11. bananaman

    bananaman Member

    I fail to see how your conclusion is clear as can be.

    First of all, The context of 1Corinthians 14 is Order in the church.It seems to me that the context is the basic principle as stated earlier in the chapter " He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church." The principle which seems to be clear in the context ,in my opinion, is that church is to be done orderly so that the whole church can be edified and not just a few. It seems pretty simple to me. One person talk at a time and keep the focus on what will edify the whole church.
    In that context, wives asking personal questions of their husbands falls in with the rest of the disorder. Since it is a public worship time where the focus is to be on G-d and on corporate issues.
  12. mama

    mama Chocolate the "other" food group

    In my bible it says that a women should learn in quiet not that she should be quiet, although I am sure some think or wish women would be quiet (lol)....I think its crazy to think that women are not to teach....what about joyce meyers she is an awsome teacher and has a huge ministry....and she helps so many people....It is ultimately your choice on whether or not you listen to women in worship...most of the worship leaders I know and listen to are women and what if thats the call God has placed on your life....I have that calling to sing as part of the ministry I am to be in....So it sounds very closed minded and legalistic to say those things.....Do you read both Greek and Hebrew? What I was told was thats not what those scriptures mean so thats my opinion.....with much love and respect.........mama
  13. charlesj

    charlesj Member

    Hi all:
    My post originally dealt around three forms of worship that you didn’t want to find yourself involved in. I didn’t really mean to start “chasing rabbits” on another issue, “women in the church.”

    I don’t think in any area of the Scriptures are so frequently attacked today than on this teaching about the role of women in the church. It’s frequently argued that the apostles and early Christians were simply reinforcing the cultural attitudes of their time concerning the role of women in religion and society. But Roman women were hardly known for their submissive character. As one Roman commented, ‘We rule the world, but our women rule us.’ “
    In Roman religions, women served in the same roles as men. Female high priestesses governed many temples. Mark Felix, a Christian lawyer, described Roman religion this way: ‘there is a certain place where a man many not go. Others are restricted from women. It is a crime for a slave even to be present at some religious ceremonies. Some temples are governed by a woman with one husband, and others by a woman with many husbands.” (M. Felix Octavius, chaper 24). In Fact, the leading religious figure in the ancient Mediterranean world was the oracle (or prophetess) of Delphi. And this oracle was always a woman.
    If the role of a woman in the church had been simply a matter of culture, and not apostolic teaching, we would expect to find that women served the same roles in both the orthodox church and the heretical groups. But this isn’t the case. Women were allowed to teach and officiate in most heretical sects. Tertullian made this comment about the role of women in such groups; ‘They are bold enough to teach, to dispute, to enact exorcisms, to undertake healings, and perhaps even to baptize.’ (Tertullian, Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 41) The two leading figures in the Montanist sect (after the death of its founder, Montanus) were both women: Maximilla and Priscilla. In fact most of the prophecies and new teachings in this sect came from its female members.
    So the exclusion of women from roles of teaching and oversight in the church was definitely not a matter of following Roman culture.
    . . . the early church simply obeyed the apostolic teachings on the role of women in the church, the same as they obeyed all the other teachings of the apostles. And once again, they went against Roman culture, rather than following it. … -end of quote

    This was taken from a book that I highly recommend. This book will give you some insight to how the early Christians (after the apostles died off) in the first and second century carried out the New Covenant writings. An attorney who has spent a lot of research on the first one hundred years of Christianity wrote it.

    The title of the book is: WILL THE REAL HERETICS PLEASE STAND UP, by David W. Bercot. I purchased my copy from Amazon.com. I bought it about six months ago and can’t remember the price, but it’s less than ten dollars. This book is like the “old potato chip” commercial, one you eat one, you can’t stop until you finish the last one. Once you start the book, it’s hard to lay it down.
    He has written other books and even a dictionary of New Testament terms.(I think that is what the title deals with.)

    For those who want a lady in the pulpit and think that she is “godly” that doesn’t changed the Lord and the New Covenant. Being godly is an attribute of all Christians, but that doesn’t quality you in the pulpit. We must abide by the rules of the New Covenant. God has a pattern to follow, a unique pattern.

    Moses was given a pattern to follow when he built the temple.
    “Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern (tupos) shewed to thee in the mount” --Hebrews 8:5

    The Greek word used here for “pattern” in Hebrews 8:5 is the Greek word “tupos.” It means “mold.” God gave Moses a “mold” to follow. Anything taken from that “mold” would look just like the pattern or mold.

    We see this Greek word used again that shows the New Covenant to have a “pattern or mold.”
    “But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form (tupos) of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness” -- Romans 6:17,18

    Here again, the Greek word “tupos” is used and is translated “form.” We learn from this scripture, that Paul tells us that there is a “mold or pattern” of doctrine that one obeys and is made free from sin and you become a servant of righteousness. This is unique doctrine that one obeys. When one obeys that “mold of doctrine” in America and another in Africa or another part of the world obeys that same “mold of doctrine” you have the same result, A CHRISTIAN. This “mold of doctrine” reproduces in each generation to the end of time. It is because of God’s pattern that the church of Christ can be reproduced in each generation.

    My point here is that the Lord does have a “pattern” in the New Covenant that Christians must follow. Write me for my “Pattern of New Testament Christianity.” (It’s around 40 pages long.) Send me a private email with you email and I will email it to you.

    Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
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