Worldview discussion

[AskTheFamily]

The short and honest answer: I have no idea, and I don't expect to find out exactly why there is anything as opposed to nothing, or that I'll be able to understand the answer.

According to evolutionary theory we're "designed" to understand stuff that makes a difference to our ability to survive and spread our genes. That's why we can quickly recognize a snake but be pretty bad at understanding quantum physics, though quantum physics may be every bit as real as the snake. Our brains simply didn't evolve to grasp stuff like that easily (if they did, we probably wouldn't be good at spotting the snakes).

You know when I play Zelda, there is an explanation to how things are in that world, and it makes sense too and you have to close yourself off to thinking of reasons that contradict it.

Evolution is a perspective and explanation, is it the right explanation? I don't personally believe so. Big bang is a perspective and explanation, but is it right? I don't think so.

Both of them to me are easily refuted by me perceiving a concept of irreducible complexity that no matter how much Iblis causes his followers to mock, proves a lot. And it's not only things in biology that is irreducibly complex, Gaia theory is true to in that respect, and as well as the universe in in wondrous form is irreducibly complex. It can be easily proven scientifically and rationally, but keep listening to people who speak none sense all day... and don't dare to give God a chance at imparting you wisdom and making you perceive the truth. See where it will get you!

 

[anonymous person]

An explanation for the existence of the Universe? Consciousness? I'm just guessing. I have no explanation for it's existence. The Universe, both the seen and unseen exist, what's all I really know. But if I were to shift and put on my God Loving hat, than I'd say that the Universe exist so that God may know It's self.

That's very interesting dlamberth. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me on that subject. My second question is related to the first. Where did human beings come from?

 

[dlamberth]

That's very interesting dlamberth. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me on that subject. My second question is related to the first. Where did human beings come from?

I look at human beings from a couple of directions. First I recognize the Human body evolving into it's present form in the same way that every other life form everywhere has evolved. But I also recognize that everything that exist also has a Soul. And so I see the Human Soul and every other Soul as being the Soul of the Universe. And like my previous post in this thread, when I change to my Lover of God perspective, I recognize the Human Soul as the Soul of God. What that does for me is to see every Human Being and life itself as Sacred.

 

[anonymous person]

I subscribe to the scientific consensus of the Big Bang. Of course, the why of this question is beyond me and thus I do not attribute any specific meaning to the origin of the universe. I would be interested to see what science discovers about the early universe and I am very interested in CERN's work with the LHC, so much so that I do volunteer data processing for their efforts.

That's fascinating that you do volunteer data processing for them. I did not even know that was possible. The question of origins not only applies to the universe, but to human beings. To what do human beings owe their existence?

 

[anonymous person]

I suppose most people will answer "god" when it comes to where morality comes from, but I find Divine Command Theory problematic (see the Euthyphro Dilemma). Besides, are we really supposed to think that casually murdering people was just dandy until Moses showed off the 10 Commandments?

Moral standards are set by societies. Ideally, they would be derived from experience, science, history, common sense, and a thorough analysis of risk and consequences of behaviors. I think factors that rely wholly on religious faith are actually detrimental to moral standards because it allows atrocities to be justified with the phrase, "in the name of God".

Quite interesting indeed! You have made some points worth consideration. So tell me, since you view morality in this way, what are the implications for the destiny of human beings? What do you think happens to us when we die?

 

[anonymous person]

Yes: is it not all in the end merely guesses and opinions?

If it is impossible to know anything about the universe, then how do you know that it is impossible to know anything about the universe? Is not this view self-refuting?

I see. IMO, from my Buddhist perspective, such questions are ultimately irrelevant because - as stated above - all potential answers, from a conceptual level, can only be unverifiable guesses and opinions.

Is the statement, "all potential answers, from a conceptual level, can only be unverifiable guesses and opinions" itself an unverifiable guess and opinion? If so, why think any of it is actually true?

However, if I may reframe the matter at hand: in a sense, the universe exists on the phenomenological level because one's consciousness experiences it. The consciousness, attached to a desire for experiencing sense objects, causes it to come into conceptual being and existence in the mind.

Are you guessing that the universe exists on the phenomenological level? Is it an unverifiable guess and opinion that the universe can be explained in the way that you have explained it?

Likewise, the universe ceases to exist when one's consciousness no longer experiences it. Detached, depriving desire of its fuel, one's experience of the universe ceases.

Interesting!

As I see it, ultimately, questions such as this are rooted in a desire to know & understand; and, when we do not know or understand, we experience discontentment. Therefore, the root problem is discontentment, which should be the real question.

If it is impossible to know these things, then how can you say that the root problem is discontentment? It seems to me that if what you say was true, we would never know that discontentment was the root problem. In fact, we would not be able to say we know anything, even that nothing can be known!

With regards to meaning, what are your views on meaning? Does life have meaning and purpose? If so, what is it?

 

[awitch]

Quite interesting indeed! You have made some points worth consideration. So tell me, since you view morality in this way, what are the implications for the destiny of human beings? What do you think happens to us when we die?

The common folklore associated with my pantheon is that we travel to the Otherworld called Tir Na Nog; a paradise realm of the gods and eternal youth and happiness. But of course, any description of an afterlife is pure wishful thinking. While Tir Na Nog sounds like a nice place to visit, most likely, I expect we just stop existing.

As for humans in general, we will eventually go extinct and the rest of the Universe will continue to do its thing long after we're gone. If there's still life on whichever planet we last lived, another species will eventually rise to take our place. I'm hoping it'll be avian.

 

[anonymous person]

In terms of the "nuts and bolts", I'd say physics and the other sciences are doing a pretty good job at figuring out how the universe came to be and how everything ended up where it is right now.
Metaphysically speaking, I'm comfortable with admitting that I do not *know*, and consider my awareness of this a good vantage point to learn something new. (After all, if I believed I had it all figured out, there would be no reason to investigate any longer.)
As for my beliefs, I do not necessarily believe that the universe has a purpose in the human sense, and that meaning is mostly a human endeavour (or restricted to other self-aware organisms or alien beings that we haven't met yet). I like to think of us as the universe examining itself by separating tiny kernels of consciousness and, in this illusion of separation, allowing us to look at the rest "from the outside".

Thank you Jane_the_Bane for sharing your thoughts with me on these issues. It seems that I agree with you that the findings of science when it comes to the universe and its evolution from a singularity to what we observe now, at the very least, causes one to entertain notions of the metaphysical.

 

[anonymous person]

Traditional Greek thought views the universe as eternally existing, and I do not think that modern science has entirely invalidated this sort of idea. This means that you could probably still get away with believing in a physical reality that is eternally dying and being reborn from its own ashes, or producing secondary universes as a result of its own activities.

However, I do think that modern cosmology supports the idea that space and time are contingent properties of the universe that came into existence alongside it, so I prefer creatio ex nihilo to models in which physical matter pre-existed and was somehow involved in the birth of our universe.

I should say that the question that interests me is not why the universe exists, but why anything exists at all (including the laws of physics that so many seem to think have explanatory power on their own merits), so I tend not to get too caught up in the question of physical origins. I'm all about Necessary Being and have been moving cautiously into genuine Ontological Argument territory recently. If existence cannot be grounded in contingent physical laws, perhaps there's some value in an axiological approach by which abstract realities are brought into being by the very fact that their existence would enrichen reality and make it better. (This is pure Platonism.)

Your views put you right up there with great minds like Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz argued that the ultimate reason for the existence of anything is that there must be a necessary being. Of course, Leibniz identified this metaphysically necessary being as God, as do I and many other Christian philosophers. So I think you are headed in the right direction. Plantinga's work on the Ontological argument is worth checking out if you have not already.

So tell me, what are your thoughts on how human beings came to be. To what do we owe our existence and is there meaning and purpose in life? If so, what is it?

 

[anonymous person]

We all have our story, so it is doubtful if anyone will fully be able to understand anothers

mind.
But then it may be possible.

Universe, at about the age of 10 I gave up, it felt like my head was going to explode.

So now simply put,
Origin, Humpty Dumpty.
Meaning, picking up the pieces.
Moral, say it as it is.
Destiny, don,t take it laying down.

To sum up my simple view,

I do not think we can take that which is not given.

Example, Tree of life,

The way to the Tree of life is guarded by the blade of the revolving sword.

The blade of the revolving sword as in
revolving sword.

When you say that the origin is Humpty Dumpty, what do you mean?

 

[ananda]

If it is impossible to know anything about the universe, then how do you know that it is impossible to know anything about the universe? Is not this view self-refuting?

Is the statement, "all potential answers, from a conceptual level, can only be unverifiable guesses and opinions" itself an unverifiable guess and opinion? If so, why think any of it is actually true?

Experience of externals and experience of experience itself are two distinct things.

Are you guessing that the universe exists on the phenomenological level? Is it an unverifiable guess and opinion that the universe can be explained in the way that you have explained it?

No, it is my direct knowledge that I only directly know phenomenological events, because those are the only things I can directly know.

If it is impossible to know these things, then how can you say that the root problem is discontentment? It seems to me that if what you say was true, we would never know that discontentment was the root problem. In fact, we would not be able to say we know anything, even that nothing can be known!

Discontentment is directly experienced. Things "outside" in the universe are not directly experienced.

With regards to meaning, what are your views on meaning? Does life have meaning and purpose? If so, what is it?

IMO life's meaning and purpose is to dispel discontentment and increase contentment. It drives literally all of our actions, as I see it.

 

[anonymous person]

I don't believe the big bang theory is well supported even though it supports Theistic arguments for a Creator ( I won't get into detail).

I believe the Creator began everything with pure consciousness all created, tested us all his creation before they took on form in realms so that was before space and their form was beyond physical existence, and therein he tested us with his word, Mohammad was the first, and when seen by Ali, Ali caught up to him and jumped to his station, and both seen by Fatima, she embraced the light and became bright, and when all seen by Hassan and Hussain, they saw the reality through God's vision and goodness was known through Hassan and it being beautiful and God being beauty was known through Hussain. Then out of beauty of Hussain, and the rest of visions and lights of Imams, each of the 9 Imams of the offspring of Hussain saw beauty or praise or goodness or nature of light or exaltedness, through an aspect that is a complete and perfect aspect, and the virtues were created, and the circles of ascension was built from this first house and family brought out for the sake of humans and Jinn.

Before Humans were created, it was this family that God when he created the Angels, taught the Angels how to glorify himself, praise, and worship his great self.

They not having taking physical form, and the fire/light nature of Angels, they thought these being although greater, were closer to them then all other possible forms.

Then God to test their sincerity and bring up their ranks with a trial, tried them with a creation from clay form like substance, that is a human form.

They right away knowing of problems with their high intellect, predicted their would be much bloodshed if he gives representation to such a being.

Of course, they were right, humans are killing each other and fighting all for the crown of the name of God but God knows best and is the best to guide.

Delegations would get unnecessarily complicated if the family of the reminder took on form of Angels, and so by God his wisdom, to not have delegation problems where people claim to represent the hidden guides, vested the light of his spirit and the Mohammadiya reality, into Adam.

The Angels all humbly accepted the reality of Adam, but Iblis, who was the first born and the father of all hidden beings (Jinn). Infuriated that God blessed a clay like creature with representing him, he began to disbelieve and question the very God he worshipped his whole life.

Of course, there is no escaping the creator, so his rebellion obviously he convinced himself the voice and revelation to the Angels, was from a wrong and misguiding force, and so became the first antagonistic disbeliever towards the family of the reminder.

He then caused a dispute in the high council when he tricked Adam and Adam fell. Some Angels fell to and lost their station as Angels as a result, and became rebels to God, just as Iblis lost his status as Angel.

God never left after that the earth without a family of the reminder, but these group of Messengers and chosen ladies, came time and time, in different cultures, circumstances, and different pathways depending on dynamic factors of their time.

Finally God sealed revelation so that he can unite people on a family of the reminder, and actually the very first house set for the sake of humanity, before humans came to this world.

The best of those who race ahead, the chosen of all chosen, and so that humans unite, and fulfill their pledges with the revelations of the Messengers through out the earth, and uphold the covenant of God as one people, he put an end to revelations and promised to protect this one, as well put it upon himself to manifest it just as it was upon him to recite the reminder, so it's upon him to explain it and manifest it's true interpretation and light.

But the story of envy and ingratitude repeated itself, and people relied on ambiguities rather then clear proofs, and people embraced the mockery and monkey king illusions towards God's religion, where by Iblis over powered the few friends of God who embraced the path of guarding and held on by the heart of love, which is fear, since fear appreciates what we have the most by guarding it with all the might of love.

God as a result of humans and Jinn rebellion, hid his final proof, to this day, where as his light is manifest as the name of God is the only thing that can connect us to God, his human form is hidden from the people and while the drunk in intoxication of love of idols seek to replace his leadership and mastery by those who are not worthy, the friends of God are awaiting his return, and will not undermine the chosen ones by equating non-chosen with their position of authority.

The heart of battle between good and evil, lies, in understanding this truth. The Torah iterates well, the Gospels emphasize and perfect that message, and Quran brings these two to a whole new level and embraces all holy books aside from these still spread around the earth.

And God is our Master, he guides through his anointed Kings who are chosen by him and purified by him and exalted above others through being vested his holy spirit, and aside from God and the chosen Guides, there is no guidance, no authority, no mastery, no leadership, no way, no path....

This trial is the reality of the origin of the universe, and all hidden realms, come through the existence and reality of the word of God, the Exalted Ones, who are all each the word of God and the word of God is with them in ways beyond our understanding and appreciation.

Wow! Thank you AskTheFamily for such a well thought out and informative response. I definitley have never met someone who has explained to me a view of Islam like this. You have given me quite a lot to think about and I think in what you wrote, I can find your answers to all four questions!!

 

[anonymous person]

Personally, I consider morality a collective human endeavour, not a metaphysical phenomenon.
It's a bit like social conventions (which are often mixed with and/or perceived as part of morality), except that the measuring stick is not as random as deciding whether it's more polite to finish a dish or to leave something on the plate. Actual ethics tends to go more along the lines of: "If I eat/serve this thing here, will it cause harm?"

My spirituality (which focuses mostly on knowing myself and others better) contributes to my moral conduct by fostering empathy and understanding, but that does NOT render ethics a spiritual endeavour in and of itself. I do not treat others well to appease a cosmic judge, score afterlife points, or reach a higher plane of consciousness: I treat them well because I wish them well, and because I realise that a climate where people harm each other is not healthy for me and my own well-being, either.

I would like to ask you a question about something you said with regards to morality but I will come back to it later. Since you mentioned afterlife points, I will go ahead and ask you, what do you think happens to humans when they die?

 

[anonymous person]

The short and honest answer: I have no idea, and I don't expect to find out exactly why there is anything as opposed to nothing, or that I'll be able to understand the answer.

According to evolutionary theory we're "designed" to understand stuff that makes a difference to our ability to survive and spread our genes. That's why we can quickly recognize a snake but be pretty bad at understanding quantum physics, though quantum physics may be every bit as real as the snake. Our brains simply didn't evolve to grasp stuff like that easily (if they did, we probably wouldn't be good at spotting the snakes).

I thank you for your candor. I admire you for your ability to honestly share your views with me here. So tell me, what implications do the aforementioned views have for meaning and purpose? Is there a meaning and purpose to life? If so, what is it?

 

[Robban]

When you say that the origin is Humpty Dumpty, what do you mean?

Well, it was not a direct answer to origin, I admit.

But, why were we born into a broken world, and what are to do about it.

Tikkun Olam (fix the world) is a profound concept,
the place where mysticism meets activism.

I do not have time to respond more now but later today.

Origin, A thought, began with a thought, it really does not bother me though.

"Let there be light."

Why?

Why would there be need for light if there was nothing to see?

 

[anonymous person]

I look at human beings from a couple of directions. First I recognize the Human body evolving into it's present form in the same way that every other life form everywhere has evolved. But I also recognize that everything that exist also has a Soul. And so I see the Human Soul and every other Soul as being the Soul of the Universe. And like my previous post in this thread, when I change to my Lover of God perspective, I recognize the Human Soul as the Soul of God. What that does for me is to see every Human Being and life itself as Sacred.

I'm, bit by bit, developing a clearer picture of how it is you see the world. So tell me, do humans have meaning and purpose in life, if so what is it?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I would like to ask you a question about something you said with regards to morality but I will come back to it later. Since you mentioned afterlife points, I will go ahead and ask you, what do you think happens to humans when they die?

Short answer: they are dead.
Long answer: our psyche, our identity is not a monolithic whole, let alone a pre-existing essence incorporating a body that works like an empty shell. Our senses, our emotions, our memories all depend on (and are generated by) our physical being, even if our consciousness is more than the sum of its parts. Our "self" changes all the time , is often self-contradictory, and very much mortal.
I'm open to the notion that consciousness is a universal property of reality and that we return to a greater Whole upon death. But our "selves" are but constructs, as frail and as mortal as the rest of us.

Buddha actually figured this out 2500 years ago, and modern psychology and neuro-sciences support it.

 

[dlamberth]

I'm, bit by bit, developing a clearer picture of how it is you see the world. So tell me, do humans have meaning and purpose in life, if so what is it?

Again, I have to look at your question from several different directions. On one end, I see our Human Form as basically animals with all of the purpose that all other animals have, like breeding, raising children, gathering food and so forth. On the other end I have to look at the evolution of consciousness that on this earth has peeked in the form of Human Beings. I don't know if that gives us "meaning", but it is a form of purpose such that because of consciousness we are the Universe being aware of it's self. When putting on the hat of a Lover of God, and experiencing God as the very foundation of all there is, we are God being aware of Itself.

 

[Silmarien]

Your views put you right up there with great minds like Gottfried Leibniz. Leibniz argued that the ultimate reason for the existence of anything is that there must be a necessary being. Of course, Leibniz identified this metaphysically necessary being as God, as do I and many other Christian philosophers. So I think you are headed in the right direction. Plantinga's work on the Ontological argument is worth checking out if you have not already.

Yes, I'm very familiar with Christian natural theology, though I tend to prefer the Patristic and medieval periods. I do like Leibniz, though.

So tell me, what are your thoughts on how human beings came to be. To what do we owe our existence and is there meaning and purpose in life? If so, what is it?

Human beings evolved, and we owe our existence to the natural history of life on this planet. Had events played out differently and mammals not managed to prosper, we would not be here. Though I suspect that a different intelligent species would have evolved instead, sooner or later.

My thoughts on purpose and meaning are much more difficult (and dark, given my existentialist background), so I can't really address that topic without jumping forward to the issue of destiny. I am personally agnostic on the question of the immortality of the soul--I see the individual self as a process rather than a discrete substance, and given the ephemerality of processes, I have some difficulty seeing the self as an individual surviving death. I think there are ways of conceiving of it that work, but I am far from convinced.

This shoves me straight into Absurdist waters, however, since I view meaning as an inherently teleological concept, and it is unclear to me what purpose a finite life could possibly have. Even on some sort of pantheistic ontology, where we could say that we are playing a role in the universe knowing or expressing itself, that seems of little interest to us if we are interchangeable and our roles end with our lives. I'm left agreeing with Albert Camus that the only important question in philosophy is suicide, though I would answer it differently than he did. If life is a farce, I see no compelling reason to play along with it. It's the rejection a meaningless and indifferent reality that ultimately strikes me as the most powerful statement of autonomy.

My answer is to accept a Pascalian Wager on the immortality of the soul. If my decidedly dark philosophy here is right, I gain nothing because there's nothing to be gained, but if it is wrong, I am into rebellion territory in the theological sense. Which is clearly bad. At the end of the day, I think meaning can only exist by standing in the presence of the Absolute, recognizing that you are ultimately powerless, trusting that reality is actually valuable in a meaningful sense, and then living your life as authentically as possible. I do not think losing yourself in your work, in other people, or whatever else is a suitable replacement for the type of meaning that we crave.

Like I said, I am pretty Christianity-lite. Or Christianity-dark-dark-dark, as the case may be this time around. I think it's one of the things that keeps me from slipping off into the waters of Vedic idealism.

 

[Arthra]

I am looking for some people who are not Christians to have a discussion with to better understand their worldview. The discussion will focus on answers to at least four topics which worldviews deal with: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny.

The Baha'i world view is an essential aspect of our Faith...

There is a well-known prayer that indicates our world view:

"O God! Make our souls dependent upon the Verses of Thy Divine Unity, our hearts cheered with the outpourings of Thy Grace, that we may unite even as the waves of one sea and become merged together as the rays of Thine effulgent Light; that our thoughts, our views, our feelings may become as one reality, manifesting the spirit of union throughout the world. Thou art the Gracious, the Bountiful, the Bestower, the Almighty, the Merciful, the Compassionate."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 405

and the following also applies:

"As we view the world around us, we are compelled to observe the manifold evidences of that universal fermentation which, in every continent of the globe and in every department of human life, be it religious, social, economic or political, is purging and reshaping humanity in anticipation of the Day when the wholeness of the human race will have been recognized and its unity established."

(Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 288)