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world war III

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by RKF, May 20, 2002.

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  1. MARANATHA2002

    MARANATHA2002 Member

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    Hello Postrib

    I will try to answer your question, but first I want to say is, that I am not attacking you or your position. I am simply stating why I believe as I do. I do not believe in arguing over a event that we both know is going to happen, but may not exactly agree on when the event will take place. I can’t be dogmatic about when the rapture will take place because I do not believe the Bible is specific on when it will happen. Here are the reasons I believe the rapture is pre-trib, and not post-trib.

    So to start, in Revelation GOD gives us time periods that events happen in, or people have authority in. We see the time periods described as, times, time, and a half time, or 42 months, or 1260 days. These all describe a 3 1/2 year period, based on a 360 day prophetic year. There are two of these time periods that make up the 7 years tribulation. These 7 years will be, 2520 days, based on the 360 day prophetic year. The first half of the tribulation starts with the signing of the treaty, we read about in Daniel. If you are correct and the rapture/resurrection happens at CHRIST’S physical return at the end of the tribulation. There are two future events to calculate to the exact day of both the return of CHRIST and the rapture/resurrection. These events are the signing of the treaty itself and the abomination of desolation. From the treaty there are 2520 days. From the abomination of desolation there are 1260 days.

    Revelation 11: 1-3
    1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    The 42 months, or 1260 days here are, I believe the first half of the tribulation. When the anti-christ goes to the temple to proclaim himself god, he will kill these two witnesses on that same day. The war spoken of in heaven, has happened at this time also, and Satan and his fallen angels are thrown out and no longer have access to the eternal realm. Satan possesses the anti-christ at this time. This event will mark the mid-point of the tribulation.

    Revelation 12: 6
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Revelation 12: 14
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

    Reading all of Chapter 12 you will see that the war in heaven happens at the mid-point of the tribulation. Verses 6 & 14 are parallels to the warning, of the abomination of desolation, to flee. Here the woman is clearly Israel. The people flee to a place were they are provided for, for 3 ½ years. These 1260 days are the 2nd half of the tribulation. Why does GOD say for 3 ½ years? What happens after these 1260 days are up? Christ returns.

    Revelation 13: 5
    5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    Again reading the whole Chapter (13) will reveal more on the anti-christ. The 42 months here, are also the 2nd half of the tribulation. Again I ask, what event happens at the end of the 42 months? The anti-christ only will have power for 42 months. What ends his reign? The return of CHRIST.

    So not to make this post extremely long, I will refer to the verses without posting them.
    Revelation 14: 14-16, these verses are describing GOD, separating the saved people from the lost people of verses17-20. I personally believe this is the parallel of the one taken and one left verses of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It could be that verses 14-16 are describing the rapture. The trouble I have with this is, if this is the rapture and all believers are taken up and are given their new bodies at the end of the tribulation at the return of CHRIST, who are the flesh and blood people that will re-populate the earth? For clearly verses 17-20, teach that lost are gathered and taken to the winepress of the wrath of GOD, and their bodies are eaten by the fowl of the air. There will be no lost people that will enter the 1000 year reign. Compare Rev. 14: 17-20 with Rev. 19: 11-21. It is the same event. Also compare the one left, one taken verses mentioned above.

    Again I am just revealing why I believe what I believe. We are brothers in CHRIST, and we both know HE is coming again, and that is all that matters. What I see here is the love of GOD. This will be the worst time in the history of man. GOD is, I believe giving the saved hope, you have only 1260 days now, or as the days count down, you only have 50 days left. This will be an inspiration for those who are going through this time. Also, if you think about what I have presented. The people who see these events happen will be able to know the day CHRIST returns if the rapture takes place at this time, they will know the exact date it will all happen on. We have all been preached to, and taught, we can't know the day CHRIST will return, but the Bible clearly says you can know the day of CHRIST return. So the day we can't know must be another day. For the Bible clearly says there is a day we can't know, but we can see from scripture that the day of HIS return is not that day. Peace, but not yet.
     
  2. MARANATHA2002

    MARANATHA2002 Member

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    I did not mean to change the subject of the tread. Any further post by me we be on topic. Sorry Thunder. Peace but not yet.
     
  3. TheBear

    TheBear Free Agent

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    I was not pointing the finger at any one individual, Brian45. I was merely reiterating forum policy to all. Why you took this personally, I have no idea. Only you know the answer to that.

    John
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    I believe there are 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Mid-trib?

    I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

    I believe we can. Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.
     
  5. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I believe that you are confusing the rapture and the second coming. They are two separate events. No one will know the day or hour of the rapture, but the whole world will see His second coming. Jesus said only His Father knew, not him or the angels, or anyone but the Father. If you believe that you can know the day and hour, wouldn't that be equal to calling Jesus a liar?? This is a major stumbling block with the post-trib theory.

    Also, Jesus will never force anyone to worship Him. Every knee will bow, but not everyone will worship the King of Kings. Those people that you believe will re-populate the earth, I call them goats. Their gonna have a very bad surprise.
     
  6. panterapat

    panterapat Praise God in all things!

    +36
    Catholic
    WWIII may be fought by enemies of antiquity. Abraham fathered two sons. Ishimil was the child of Abraham and his slave girl. Issaic was the child of Abraham and Sarah as a result of an angel's promise. After Issaic's birth, Ishimil was banished. Ishimil's lineage has given us the Islamic faith. Issaic's lineage gave us the Jewish faith and by extension the Christian faith. The two "sides" have been diametricly opposed since that time. The epic war will be the Christian nations verses the Islamic nations. May God be with us!
     
  7. MARANATHA2002

    MARANATHA2002 Member

    149
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    quote:
    ...From the abomination of desolation there are 1260 days...

    I believe there are 1335 days (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Daniel 12: 5-12
    5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
    6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Here we have 3 events that happen after the abomination of desolation.
    1. After a period of time, times, and a half time. I believe this is the direct parallel to Revelation, where the same word usage is used. This is 3 ½ years, or 42 months, or 1260 days. I believe this is when CHRIST’S feet physically touch the ground at HIS return.
    2. After 1290 days, and after 1335 days 2 other events happens, and honestly I am not sure what they are. They could be the marriage supper for the bride and groom, and I am just speculating here. I believe these 2 events have something to do with setting the government of CHRIST’S kingdom, but I am not sure. I can’t find these 2 events mentioned in Revelation, but the event of verse 7 is.

    quote:
    ...It could be that [Rev 14] verses 14-16 are describing the rapture...
    Mid-trib?

    These verses could be the rapture, but they could also be the separation that takes place at CHRIST return. I fill it is one of the two. If it is the rapture, of course I believe it will be pre-trib.


    quote:
    ...who are the flesh and blood people that will re-populate the earth?...
    I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

    Here we may just simple disagree. I do not believe any unsaved persons will enter the kingdom, only saved people. The people born after the kingdom starts will of course have to accept CHRIST as we all have, when they reach the age of understanding.


    quote:
    ...we can't know the day CHRIST will return...
    I believe we can. Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).
    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.



    Actually my quote was:
    “We have all been preached to, and taught, we can't know the day CHRIST will return, but the Bible clearly says you can know the day of CHRIST return. So the day we can't know must be another day. For the Bible clearly says there is a day we can't know, but we can see from scripture that the day of HIS return is not that day.”

    Your right JESUS is not coming 3 times, and I do not believe a pre-trib position says that. I don’t look at the pre-trib position as JESUS coming to set up HIS kingdom, but us GOING, to meet HIM in the air. JESUS isn’t coming at the rapture were going, that is the correct way to look at the pre-trib position.

    Postrib

    Again I want to say that we agree that CHRIST is coming and that is what we are celebrating here, I am the first to admit we can all be wrong on the details, but we seem to agree on the big picture, CHRIST comes back and rules a 1000 years. As brothers, either way it happens lets rejoice in it.

    Oh yeah, WWIII. :sorry: Peace, but not yet.
     
  8. rookie

    rookie Member

    105
    +1
    Christian
    Ok, I have just been reading here and there and coming in on the end of this.

    I wanted to jump back, if no one minds, to the 200 million man army. I had heard recently on the radio that China currently has 198 million plus in its army. And that China is building a super highway toward the middle east.

    Is is possible that China is the army spoken of?

    rookie
     
  9. MARANATHA2002

    MARANATHA2002 Member

    149
    +0
    Hello Rookie

    Yes, some of us believe that China will raise the army that is spoken of in Revelation. The Bible calls them the kings of the east. There is a possibility that the kings of the east could be a league of all the oriental nations combined, specifically China, Korea, and Japan. I have heard and read from different sources that China was building a nine lane highway to the Euphrates River. I do not know for sure if this is true, it may be. This will be a huge army logistically to move. Considering it took our military 6 months to mobilize 500,000 troops in the Gulf war. This was with the best equipped and financed military in the world. The kings of the east will mobilize a force, 400 times the size we did in the Gulf War. This seems impossible for us to imagine. Just imagine when it was revealed to John. I read somewhere that the population of the earth in the first century wasn’t even that high. When this army makes it’s move, 1/3 of the remaining population of the world will be killed. Peace, but not yet.
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    Note that no verse says this.

    Amen. I believe the rapture will be at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:23), for there's no 3rd coming.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know" (future tense).

    From the time he commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36), I believe the Antichrist is given 1,260 days to rule and persecute believers (compare Revelation 13:5), after which I believe vials 1-5 (Revelation 16) will be poured out on his kingdom over a period of 30 days, during which time we don't see him persecuting believers. On day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), I believe the 6th vial will be poured out preparing the way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12). It may then take about 45 days for the Antichrist and all the kings of the earth to gather all of their armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14). I believe Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are the same blessing, so that we must wait until the 1,335th day for the return of Christ to destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    Would Jesus need to force saved people to come up to Jerusalem to worship him? (Zechariah 14:16-18) Would we need to rule over believers with a rod of iron? (Revelation 2:26-29)

    I believe he is: "The coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15); "They that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

    Amen.

    I believe Daniel 11:13 may prophesy a Mid-East war which has not yet happened, and Daniel 11:14 may prophesy a different world reaction to this war than to the Gulf War, so that the U.S. will find itself without much support as a united northern Arab coalition, possibly Iraq & Syria armed with tactical nuclear missiles, may say it's trying "to rightfully wrest the control of Palestine and Egypt from U.S. hegemony and restore them to their Arab brethren." Daniel 11:15-16 may be saying that neither the U.S. nor Israel will find any defense against the use of tactical nuclear missiles, the U.S. will be defeated in its Mid-East position, Israel and Egypt will be occupied, and the tiny country of Israel will be almost completely destroyed.

    This war may also cause the downfall of the U.S. at least in its superpower status, especially if China coordinates with the northern Arab coalition so that China attacks Taiwan will all its might at the same time the northern Arab coalition makes an all-out attack on Israel and Egypt. I believe a full-scale war over Taiwan is inevitable: China is only growing stronger and stronger militarily and they will eventually reach the point of confidence to attempt to take Taiwan, especially if they see that most of the U.S.' military force is already fully engaged in a future Mid-East war.

    I believe the U.S.' losses in the Mid-East may be so great from the tactical nuclear missiles which may be used against Israel and Egypt that public opinion in the U.S. may begin to say "What are we doing over there? 20,000 of our soldiers wiped out in Egypt in one day, for what? Let all the Israelis come over here and live in Montana if they want, but by God, we're not going to lose the lives of any more Americans over this madness." And the U.S may retreat into a Fortress America mentality.
     
  11. MARANATHA2002

    MARANATHA2002 Member

    149
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    quote:
    ...No one will know the day or hour of the rapture...
    Note that no verse says this.

    Agreed

    quote:
    ...the whole world will see His second coming...
    Amen. I believe the rapture will be at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:23), for there's no 3rd coming.

    I an not saying you are wrong, but that we simply disagree here.

    quote:
    ...Jesus said only His Father knew...
    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know" (future tense).

    Again we may simply disagree here. The Bible does teach, there is a day that we CANNOT know, but I DO NOT BELIEVE that day is the rapture, or CHRIST’S 2nd coming.

    quote:
    ...Here we have 3 events that happen after the abomination of desolation.
    1. After a period of time, times, and a half time. I believe this is the direct parallel to Revelation, where the same word usage is used. This is 3 ½ years, or 42 months, or 1260 days. I believe this is when CHRIST’S feet physically touch the ground at HIS return.
    2. After 1290 days, and after 1335 days 2 other events happens, and honestly I am not sure what they are...
    From the time he commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36), I believe the Antichrist is given 1,260 days to rule and persecute believers (compare Revelation 13:5), after which I believe vials 1-5 (Revelation 16) will be poured out on his kingdom over a period of 30 days, during which time we don't see him persecuting believers. On day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), I believe the 6th vial will be poured out preparing the way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12). It may then take about 45 days for the Antichrist and all the kings of the earth to gather all of their armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14). I believe Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are the same blessing, so that we must wait until the 1,335th day for the return of Christ to destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    Here again we simply disagree. I see you have a modified version of the consecutive view of the seals, trumpets, and bowls of wrath. I personally take a more less popular concurrent view, but looking past that, both our views end up at the same place, the 1000 year reign of CHRIST.



    quote:
    ...I do not believe any unsaved persons will enter the kingdom, only saved people...
    Would Jesus need to force saved people to come up to Jerusalem to worship him? (Zechariah 14:16-18) Would we need to rule over believers with a rod of iron? (Revelation 2:26-29)


    Not at first because they are all saved, but as the population grows during the 1000 years, the people born AFTER CHRIST set HIS kingdom up, will not all grow up to be saved, some will reject CHRIST as they have in the past, and even as we post, and yes these people will be forced to come.

    quote:
    ...JESUS isn’t coming at the rapture...
    I believe he is: "The coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15); "They that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).


    Here we may disagree again, but brother still.

    quote:
    ...we seem to agree on the big picture, CHRIST comes back and rules a 1000 years...
    Amen.

    AND again and again.

    quote:
    ...Oh yeah, WWIII...
    I believe Daniel 11:13 may prophesy a Mid-East war which has not yet happened, and Daniel 11:14 may prophesy a different world reaction to this war than to the Gulf War, so that the U.S. will find itself without much support as a united northern Arab coalition, possibly Iraq & Syria armed with tactical nuclear missiles, may say it's trying "to rightfully wrest the control of Palestine and Egypt from U.S. hegemony and restore them to their Arab brethren." Daniel 11:15-16 may be saying that neither the U.S. nor Israel will find any defense against the use of tactical nuclear missiles, the U.S. will be defeated in its Mid-East position, Israel and Egypt will be occupied, and the tiny country of Israel will be almost completely destroyed.

    This war may also cause the downfall of the U.S. at least in its superpower status, especially if China coordinates with the northern Arab coalition so that China attacks Taiwan will all its might at the same time the northern Arab coalition makes an all-out attack on Israel and Egypt. I believe a full-scale war over Taiwan is inevitable: China is only growing stronger and stronger militarily and they will eventually reach the point of confidence to attempt to take Taiwan, especially if they see that most of the U.S.' military force is already fully engaged in a future Mid-East war.

    I believe the U.S.' losses in the Mid-East may be so great from the tactical nuclear missiles which may be used against Israel and Egypt that public opinion in the U.S. may begin to say "What are we doing over there? 20,000 of our soldiers wiped out in Egypt in one day, for what? Let all the Israelis come over here and live in Montana if they want, but by God, we're not going to lose the lives of any more Americans over this madness." And the U.S may retreat into a Fortress America mentality.



    Here we agree almost totally. There are many scenarios that can take place during this time. I fill there are many military powers in the world who are going to take advantage of an all out mid-east conflict, where the USA has committed most of it’s forces in trying to secure the oil. China, will go after Taiwan. India will probably go after Kashmir. North Korea, will for sure attempt to re-unite with South Korea. There are others I am sure. The Russians have successfully been able to spread our forces through out the world, by arming all Arab nations and little factions here and there, without deploying one of there troops, as of yet. This combined with China now controlling both ports on either side of the Panama Canal, were 80% of our forces were moved through in the Gulf War. I see this as a chess game were the Russians and the Chinese are several moves ahead of us strategically.

    It seems we are seeing the same things strategically on the future war fronts. Peace, but not yet.
     
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