Works

[visionary]

Rom 9:31... Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works.

So what were they doing? [works]

- dissecting every nuance of each word?
- analyzing every word for possible applications?
- coming up with ways to perform each in the daily routines of life

So what is wrong with that... is it not what scholars do, all day long?

So what is missing? How does one seek it by faith?

And more over...

- dissecting every nuance of each word is not the answer.
- Nor is analyzing every word for possible applications either.
- And coming up with ways [traditions] to perform each in the daily routines of life is not the answer.

So that means using scripture as the pat answer in this thread is nothing more than following in the same footsteps that others had done and still "not arrived at the law." Whatever that means? Where does the law have an arrival spot? What is that? Is arriving at the law even a goal we should be after?

 

[Shimshon]

The righteous/lawfull live by faith, not by working the law. Meaning faith is not causing one to live by works But that good works are lived through having faith. Righteousness is lived through faith not by obedience to works. That would be the point of the text.

 

[Lulav]

Yet the blessing and covenant transferred from Abraham to his son Isaac only because Abraham obeyed the Torah HaShem gave him, not because he had faith.

1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the L-RD appeared unto him, and said , Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed ; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

No mention of faith here at all, only Shema, and Shamar (Hear and obey)

 

[visionary]

The righteous/lawfull live by faith, not by working the law. Meaning faith is not causing one to live by works But that good works are lived through having faith. Righteousness is lived through faith not by obedience to works. That would be the point of the text.

Sounds like a good sound bit... but so we all have heard it until it is a commercial phrase without any real depth to it in life.

 

[annier]

Yet the blessing and covenant transferred from Abraham to his son Isaac only because Abraham obeyed the Torah HaShem gave him, not because he had faith.

No mention of faith here at all, only Shema, and Shamar (Hear and obey)

.

What law was that? The law of faith is mentioned in Romans, in distinction to works also?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[visionary]

.

What law was that? The law of faith is mentioned in Romans, in distinction to works also?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

It is all about the heart and mind... living what you are believing and believing in the truth as God instructs.

 

[Lulav]

.

What law was that? The law of faith is mentioned in Romans, in distinction to works also?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

What law of faith, where is that in the Bible?

 

[Shimshon]

Sounds like a good sound bit... but so we all have heard it until it is a commercial phrase without any real depth to it in life.

That doesn't make it any less truthfull.

 

[Shimshon]

What law of faith, where is that in the Bible?

Rom 3:27 ..... it's in your quote.

 

[Lulav]

.

What law was that? The law of faith is mentioned in Romans, in distinction to works also?
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Are you referring to this?

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Read in Hebrew this verse means that Abraham listened to what G-d told him, and did what he asked him to do.

Abraham obeyed my voice (what G-d spoke to him) kept my ordinances, my mitzvot, my Statues (or ordinances) and my Torah.

Four things Abraham obeyed G-d on

1. Ordinances
2. Commandments
3. Statues
4. Torah

This covers all what G-d expects from an individual.
It can also be found in direct speaking to Abraham, not just his son Isaac, here

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed ; because thou hast obeyed my voice

Gen 22

 

[Lulav]

Rom 3:27 ..... it's in your quote.

Besides there, I meant as given in the Torah.

 

[annier]

Are you referring to this?



Read in Hebrew this verse means that Abraham listened to what G-d told him, and did what he asked him to do.

Abraham obeyed my voice (what G-d spoke to him) kept my ordinances, my mitzvot, my Statues (or ordinances) and my Torah.

Four things Abraham obeyed G-d on

1. Ordinances
2. Commandments
3. Statues
4. Torah

This covers all what G-d expects from an individual.
It can also be found in direct speaking to Abraham, not just his son Isaac, here
Gen 22

Romans says Moses followed the torah of faith, not works.

 

[dnc101]

Romans says Moses followed the torah of faith, not works.

No ma'm, that is incorrect. I've been told that most places where you see the word "faith" in the "New" Legal Document, you can probably safely exchange it for "trust" and be closer. Read:

Rom 3:27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. (CJB)

Avram to Moses, and especially Joshua (my favorite "Old" character), those called of Gd to help establish a nation had to trust their Gd in order to do the things asked of them. They didn't always live up to this standard of trust; but even in the times they failed they still had faith. Faith is relatively easy, trust is something else entirely.

Works that matter spring from trust, not just faith. Moses did what he did because he trusted his Gd.

James 2:18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! 19 You believe that "God is one"? Good for you! The demons believe it too - the thought makes them shudder with fear! 20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such "faith" apart from actions is barren? 21 Wasn't Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz'chak on the altar? 22 You see that his faith worked with his actions; by the actions the faith was made complete; 23 and the passage of the Tanakh was fulfilled which says, "Avraham had faith in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness." He was even called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. 25 Likewise, wasn't Rachav the prostitute also declared righteous because of actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another route? 26 Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead. (CJB)

That doggone James, he just had to rain on the faith only folks new religion!

Dan C

 

[HannibalFlavius]

No ma'm, that is incorrect. I've been told that most places where you see the word "faith" in the "New" Legal Document, you can probably safely exchange it for "trust" and be closer. Read:

Rom 3:27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of Torah excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a Torah that has to do with trusting. (CJB)

Avram to Moses, and especially Joshua (my favorite "Old" character), those called of Gd to help establish a nation had to trust their Gd in order to do the things asked of them. They didn't always live up to this standard of trust; but even in the times they failed they still had faith. Faith is relatively easy, trust is something else entirely.

Works that matter spring from trust, not just faith. Moses did what he did because he trusted his Gd.

James 2:18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! 19 You believe that "God is one"? Good for you! The demons believe it too - the thought makes them shudder with fear! 20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such "faith" apart from actions is barren? 21 Wasn't Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz'chak on the altar? 22 You see that his faith worked with his actions; by the actions the faith was made complete; 23 and the passage of the Tanakh was fulfilled which says, "Avraham had faith in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness." He was even called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. 25 Likewise, wasn't Rachav the prostitute also declared righteous because of actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another route? 26 Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead. (CJB)

That doggone James, he just had to rain on the faith only folks new religion!

Dan C

James 5--remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

1st Peter 4 --'' Because love will cover the multitude of sins.''
This is about works in charity

 

[mercy1061]

So what were they doing? [works]

- dissecting every nuance of each word?
- analyzing every word for possible applications?
- coming up with ways to perform each in the daily routines of life

So what is wrong with that... is it not what scholars do, all day long?

So what is missing? How does one seek it by faith?

And more over...

- dissecting every nuance of each word is not the answer.
- Nor is analyzing every word for possible applications either.
- And coming up with ways [traditions] to perform each in the daily routines of life is not the answer.

So that means using scripture as the pat answer in this thread is nothing more than following in the same footsteps that others had done and still "not arrived at the law." Whatever that means? Where does the law have an arrival spot? What is that? Is arriving at the law even a goal we should be after?

Romans 9
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”


Now Pharisee Paul uses Jacob and Esau to make his claim "not by works but by him who calls" even before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad. Now we know when running a race, we are accustomed to the "rule"-the runner that cross the finish line first wins the race, however the ancient scriptures say it this way:
Ecc 9
11 I have seen something else under the sun:
The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.

We heard the story of the prodigal son, the youngest son left his father's house first, while the older son stayed at home. Rebekah (Jacob and Esau's mother) was told "the older shall serve the younger"; we all know Jacob served Esau bread and soup; Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” We know the birthright is given to the eldest son along with a double portion over and above his brothers. Why would Esau sell something to Jacob that he was never entitled to? The son that G-d formed first inside his mother's womb is the oldest son not the son that leaves his mother's womb first. Therefore it is not dependent on Jacob/Esau's efforts or desire, but it is G-d who forms the pot from the same lumb of clay. The potter determines which pot he forms first.

We have also heard "we walk by faith and not by sight"; in those days they could not see G-d working inside their mother's womb to determine which son was created first; today because of modern science we can see "G-d working" inside that "dark womb" with the help of a sonogram.


Now Israel did not arrive at the law; because he did not have a "sonogram" to see inside his mother's womb.

Romans 9
31 However, Isra’el, even though they kept pursuing a Torah that offers righteousness, did not reach what the Torah offers. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue righteousness as being grounded in trusting but as if it were grounded in doing legalistic works. They stumbled over the stone that makes people stumble.

Israel did not reach what the Torah offers, although what the Torah offered them was not beyond their reach. We know the "stone" had written on it the law and the commandments. If Israel had trusted G-d fully, she would have reached her goal. The law as Pharisee Paul puts it, is also a destination; Israel had to trust G-d in order to reach her destination. Instead many of them stumbled and failed in the desert.

 

[dnc101]

mercy, you need to go back and read all of Romans 9 so you can see your quote in context. He is talking about election, not works. Election is the act of a sovereign Gd, not the work of any man. Gd calls men.

So, in your opinion, what does He call us to do? Just believe? Have faith? Was the Great Commission just about our faith? "Stay ye therefore into thine house and have faith, making believe I am your Gd ..." I tried that for a while, and nothing good came of it, I can tell you.

Dan C

 

[mercy1061]

mercy, you need to go back and read all of Romans 9 so you can see your quote in context.

I did.

He is talking about election, not works.

That is what I said.

Election is the act of a sovereign Gd, not the work of any man. Gd calls men.

In order that G-d's "purpose" in election might stand; but elections are performed by men.

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:

So, in your opinion, what does He call us to do?

He called Jacob to be the firstborn to serve his younger brother. As Cain should have served Abel; but instead Cain killed his younger brother.

Just believe? Have faith? Was the Great Commission just about our faith?

The topic of this discussion is "works" how Israel did not arrive at the law.
Pharisee Paul speaks about the law as a destination that Israel did not reach.

"Stay ye therefore into thine house and have faith, making believe I am your Gd ..." I tried that for a while, and nothing good came of it, I can tell you.

Listen to what the father said to the older son (firstborn) that stayed home,

31 ‘Son, you are always with me,’ said the father, ‘and everything I have is yours.

 

[dnc101]

... In order that G-d's "purpose" in election might stand; but elections are performed by men. ...

From "Bible Doctrine" by Wayne Grudman, glossary:

"election. An act of God before creation in which he chose some people to be saved, not on account of any foreseen merit in them, but only because of his sovereign good pleasure."

From "Jewish New Testament Commentary" by David H. Stern, pge 390:

"... standing with God doesn't depend on human desires or efforts, God does nevertheless have mercy and does show pity."

Election has nothing to do with man. It is solely an act of Gd. That is the point being made.

If "elections are performed by men" then we'd have salvation by works. We need to get the terms straight or any discussion is meaningless. So, what did you mean by the statement "elections are performed by men"?

Dan C

 

[dnc101]

... He called Jacob to be the firstborn to serve his younger brother. As Cain should have served Abel; but instead Cain killed his younger brother.

The topic of this discussion is "works" how Israel did not arrive at the law.
Pharisee Paul speaks about the law as a destination that Israel did not reach.

The topic is faith vs. works, and in that context vis asked "Where does the law have an arrival spot?"

It seems here you are now arguing for works, not just faith. How, if at all, do you think trust fits into the picture?

Dan C

 

[Lulav]

Romans says Moses followed the torah of faith, not works.

And I asked where in the Torah does it say this? This would be the only source to find this and to verify anything coming after it.