Works?

[Erik3]

Hi, I have a question.

From what I understand (and that is very little) Catholics believe that a person is saved by faith and by works. Is this correct?

And, if so, what about Ephesians 2:8-9, or is that something differnt?

And if it is please explain.

Thanks
Erik

 

[PeterPaul]

Can you explain James?

Jam 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jam 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

After your quoted verses, this appears:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

What do we do when we walk, we take action, or as Jews would say, we "work", something forbidden on the Sabbath. And upon walking, we are living a path, a road, and we must walk in those "good works", meaning we must, in accord with faith, produce good work. That "work". meaning work according to the Law was no longer applicable as a check list to go to Heaven, but the work of God, which we follow and produce is a requirement.

 

[Debi1967]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

I. Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - many Protestants believe that, in order to be saved, one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. They believe that good works are not necessary for salvation, but simply flow from those who are already saved. But these verses teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 - we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus orders the Ephesians who have strong faith to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus acknowledges the good works of the Thyatirans, except their tolerance of Jezebel and is thus not satisfied.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus will give each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:1-2,8,15 - again, Jesus is judging our works from heaven. We choose to apply Christ's merits to our own lives.

Rev. 14:13, 20:12 - we are judged by the Lord by our works. Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.



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II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation

Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect" have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than a certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation.

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure.

 

[Debi1967]

III. Predestination and the "Elect"

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God predestined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 - Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 - we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 - we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 - we see that the names in the book of life can be blotted out. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29-30- therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by foreknowledge. As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.

Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.

James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.

1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).

John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).

Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).

1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.

1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).

Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.



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IV. Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 - we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that many people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.



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V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice

Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace.

Rom. 11:20-22 - we can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing and persevering and be cut off.

1 Cor. 9:22,27 - even Saint Paul recognized that he could lose his salvation by choosing wrong. Not every runner receives a prize. If Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why are many Protestant churches so presumptuous to think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:27 - the word "disqualified" that Paul uses comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. This proves that Paul believes he can lose his salvation. Protestants, therefore, who believe in "once saved, always saved" have to argue that "disqualified" cannot refer to being cut off from Christ and salvation. Instead, they argue that "disqualified" only refers to receiving less rewards in heaven. But Scripture disproves their claim:

Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 - for example, in these verses "adokimos" always refers to those reprobates who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:12 - anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 - I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ. Paul thus teaches that we can be in Christ, and still fall away from Christ. Once saved, always saved?

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling?

Phil. 3:11-12 - again, Saint Paul acknowledges the need to endure to the end and has no presumption of salvation.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we are steadfast.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith." They had the faith, then lost it.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

2 Tim. 4:8 - it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. But this is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we must have a moral certitude of salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We can choose to fall away.

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 - take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it.

Heb. 4:6 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 - we are all called to God, but we must "work" hard to keep our calling. By grace we participate in our salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?

Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24 - the righteous can turn away from their righteousness, and their prior good deeds will be forgotten.

 

[Debi1967]

VI. I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.



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VII. I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.



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VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.



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IX. I Save (by participating in Christ's salvific work)

Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ's atonement through our love and faith.

 

[Chester]

And, if so, what about Ephesians 2:8-9, or is that something differnt?

And if it is please explain.

Thanks
Erik

Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to works of the Mosaic Law (circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.) not good works performed by Christians.

 

[Credo]

Don't stop at verse 9, go on to verse 10...

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are to walk in good works. Contrast this with St. Paul's letter to the Galatians...

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith.

Throughout all of Scripture, there is never a distinction between faith and good works. They are always together and compliment one another. It's never faith or good works, rather it's faith and good works. James 2 has already been mentioned as the key to this. We must have both, not either or.

Now, the distinction that is definitely made throughout the entire Bible is between faith and self-righteous religiosity, that is thinking that God will bless us because we deserve it. Whenever works of the law are brought up, this is the distinction that's being made. Many of the Jews at that time thought they were going to receive God's blessings because of the fact that they were Jews. They bore the convenant sign and meticulously kept the laws even thought their hearts were far from God.

We see the combination of faith and doing works or obedience to God's commands spelled out clearly in Hebrews 11. This faith and the obedience to perform works that springs from faith are found in all the Old Testament saints:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts;
Notice, by faith he did something.

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. 9 faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
By faith they did something. This patern is throughout the Old Testament.

Adam & Eve: They were offered eternal happiness and prosperity in the Garden of Eden. Was it by faith alone? No. To continue in the blessing of Paradise, they had to trust what God had said to them (faith) AND refrain from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (obedience). By faith, they had to do something. Both/and, not either/or.

Noah: He was warned of a coming flood and was promised salvation for himself and his family. Was it by faith alone that they were to be saved? Obviously not. Noah had to believe, otherwise he wouldn't have built the boat. By that trust (faith) in what God had told him, Noah did build the boat (obedience) and his family was saved. By faith, he did something. Both/and, not either/or.

Abraham: In Genesis 12:1-3, God makes a series promises to Abram; to make of him a great nation, to make him a father of many, and in the end even the promise of the Messiah, through his descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. Were there promises to be received by faith alone? God says do something...
Genesis 12:4 So Abram went out as the Lord had commanded him
...and Abram went as the Lord told him. So, was it faith, or was it obedience? What if he had believed God but never actually left? We find that again it's both/and, not either/or. And the Bible plainly tells us so.

In Genesis 22, we have the story of Abraham who acts so boldly in faith that he is willing to sacrifice his only son Isaac on the altar to God. Of course, the angel of the Lord intervenes and stops Abraham from doing so at the crucial moment. The angel then reiterates God's promises:

Genesis 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, 18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice."

Notice that it says because you have obeyed my voice. By faith he did something. What if Abraham had believed God, headed up the mountain with Isaac, but never followed through, would the angel have repeated the promises? Well, no. The passage specifically says "...because you have done this...I will bless you."

Looking back on the Old Testament saints we see that by faith they did something, by faith they obeyed. Faith and obedience/works are intimately united as what is required for those who want to walk with God and receive God's blessings. "Take up your cross and follow me" Jesus said (Luke 9:23). "It's not those who cry 'Lord, Lord' it's those who do the will of my Father" Jesus also said (Matthew 7:21).

Israel is God's firstborn son. Through the children of Israel, God was teaching lessons that were for the whole world. If God wanted to teach the world that the blessing of eternal life was to be received by faith alone completely apart from having to do something, why did He fill the Bible with one story after another which portrayed people never receiving His blessing by faith alone but always receiving His blessing because of faith flowing forth in obedience persevered to the end?

While faith is never set over and against obedience, faith and obedience together, or faithful obedience, are set over and against and radically distinguished from the arrogant attitude of thinking that God should bless you because you deserve it. For instance, look at the Israelites in scripture. Throughout Old Testament history, God is always saying to His children Israel, “Love Me, trust Me, keep My commandments, and I will bless you.” And it’s never “you must in your own strength keep my commandments perfectly, then I will bless you.” It’s “I will be gracious to you, I will forgive you when you fall, I’m your Father, I love you, so trust Me and follow Me; trust Me and obey Me and I will bless you.” There were always some who did this. But there were also many throughout the Old Testament, and even flowing into the New Testament, who thought to themselves something like this: “God is going to bless me because I am a Jew. God is going to bless me because I am a member of the covenant people; because I have received the official sign of the covenant [the sign of circumcision]. Because I meticulously observe the Sabbath and keep all the ceremonial laws precisely, even though my heart is miles from God.” In other words, God is going to bless me because I deserve to be blessed, because of these certain distinctives, because I am of the right people, because I perform the right ceremonies, and it doesn’t matter where my heart lies.

Jeremiah 9:25 Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will punish all those who are circumcised but yet uncircumcised

The covenant sign was supposed to mean something. Here, God is saying “You may be outwardly conforming, but you’re not inwardly conforming.” And God rejects that.

We see exactly this same contrast in the ministry of John the Baptist. We don’t see a contrast between faith and obedience, but we do see a contrast between faithful obedience on the one hand and this arrogant reliance on the other hand. What was the heart of John the Baptist’s message? “Bear fruit that befits repentance” (Matthew 3:8) – immediately we have obedience and then it’s contrasted against the arrogance of being blessed because you deserve it.

Matthew 3:8-10 “Bear fruit that befits repentance, and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

John’s message is the same message we find in Isaiah and Jeremiah. John the Baptist is not saying “God wants faith not obedience.” He’s saying “God wants faithful obedience. God doesn’t want you standing around saying ‘We’ve got Abraham for our father; we’ve got it made!’” That’s arrogant self-reliance.

We see this exact same contrast in the teaching of our Lord. We don’t see Jesus anywhere saying “I want faith and not obedience.” We do see Jesus saying “I want faithful obedience, what I don’t want is this arrogant reliance on your status as an Israelite or your ability to fastidiously keep all the minute details of the ceremonial laws.” What did Jesus say to some of the Pharisees?

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”

In other words, you are very precise in keeping the Mosaic laws, but you neglect justice, mercy, and faith; you should have kept them all. Like Isaiah, like Jeremiah, like John the Baptist, our Lord is simply saying “I want those whose hearts are circumcised. I want from you exactly what I wanted from Noah, from Abraham, from every saint from the beginning, I want faith and obedience. What I don’t want is self-righteous religiosity.”

JMJ

 

[Erik3]

Thaks to everyone who responded

Erik

 

[Ampmonster]

I used to go to a "saved by faith only" church, but we still did works all the time. didnt undertand it really. works is so practically interwoven into the Word, that ive never really understood those that say otherwise

 

[Servant of the Kingdom]

Works must be unsterdood as not merely 'external' works done to please the world, but works that surge from a spirit that, at the very least, tries his best to do what it is good.

 

[Debi1967]

Faith and Works analogy, they work together you cannot have one with out the other...just like a coin Faith and Works are like two sides of the same coin the coin will have no value if you do not have both sides making it a whole.....

they work hand in hand with each other....

Some have said that we believe that we can buy our way into heaven and this would only be possible if you put more emphasis on the Works then the Faith. We do not and we believe they are both equally necessary in order to obtain Salvation.....

 

[Benedicta00]

Hi, I have a question.

From what I understand (and that is very little) Catholics believe that a person is saved by faith and by works. Is this correct?

And, if so, what about Ephesians 2:8-9, or is that something differnt?

And if it is please explain.

Thanks
Erik

Works of the law. We are not under the law but grace so if we stumble we are forgiven because of grace; the law is not our standard of judgement. This in no way implies that we are free from doing good. You must make an effort to stay away from sin and love God if you will be saved in the end. If you don’t do good, your love will grow very cold.

 

[MrZoom]

Works of the law. We are not under the law but grace so if we stumble we are forgiven because of grace; the law is not our standard of judgement. This in no way implies that we are free from doing good. You must make an effort to stay away from sin and love God if you will be saved in the end. If you don?t do good, your love will grow very cold.

That is an excellent way of putting it, Michelle. In fact I daresay that's one of the best explanations I've ever heard. If I wasn't such a newbie I'd give you some of my blessings.

 

[twosid]

You must make an effort to stay away from sin and love God if you will be saved in the end.

The common Protestant response to this is that if this is true that Jesus wasn't enough and without ourselves and what we add to what Jesus did we cannot be saved. How would you address this?

 

[artnalex]

The common Protestant response to this is that if this is true that Jesus wasn't enough...

Before anyone addresses anything, tell me where anyone stated that Jesus wasn't enough? You are creating an argument where there is none - and then attributing it to us Catholics.

Really, you are comparing apples to oranges. His death is enough to conquer sin, but that doesn't mean that everyone is saved without their own participation. We have to participate in our own salvation as well. You keep getting tied up on "faith alone", despite the various Biblical verses to the opposition. For some reason you keep forgetting the parts in the Bible which plainly state that "faith without works is dead", and various other verses that plainly state that it takes more than just faith to get to heaven. Why do you do that to yourself? You need to de-program yourself.

In order to do so, please re-read the posts in other threads that have already been given to you for this very same question you are posting again. In fact, if you are unwilling to do so, just read what has been posted in this thread with respect to James 2.

If you have questions on the material that has been presented, then come back with the questions, but at least work with what has been provided to you various times.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Hi, I have a question.

From what I understand (and that is very little) Catholics believe that a person is saved by faith and by works. Is this correct?

And, if so, what about Ephesians 2:8-9, or is that something differnt?

And if it is please explain.

Thanks
Erik

Remember...initial justification is what your verse is refering to...there is a difference between initial justification and final salvation.

For example, the thief on the cross was initially justified and went to Heaven, because he never had a chance to live out his faith through good works...although he did at least admonish the other thief for not repenting, so that is a work too.

 

[Debi1967]

Ok We are Saved by Grace alone but our Salvation is given to those that persevere by Faith and Works....

Therefore, Jesus and his Sacrifice in order for us to have the Hope of Salvation is the Gift that we have been given.

Salvation and the Hope that we have of it is something that needs to be worked out with Faith and in fear and trembling and through Works....

Our Salvation is something that we can ourselves give away....by rejecting the Saving Grace that saved us to begin with...thus until we persevere until the end which is a combination with Act of Faith and the Acts of Works combined working hand in hand then we can then have some assurity of our Salvation.

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[twosid]

Before anyone addresses anything, tell me where anyone stated that Jesus wasn't enough? You are creating an argument where there is none - and then attributing it to us Catholics.

Really, you are comparing apples to oranges. His death is enough to conquer sin, but that doesn't mean that everyone is saved without their own participation. We have to participate in our own salvation as well. You keep getting tied up on "faith alone", despite the various Biblical verses to the opposition. For some reason you keep forgetting the parts in the Bible which plainly state that "faith without works is dead", and various other verses that plainly state that it takes more than just faith to get to heaven. Why do you do that to yourself? You need to de-program yourself.

In order to do so, please re-read the posts in other threads that have already been given to you for this very same question you are posting again. In fact, if you are unwilling to do so, just read what has been posted in this thread with respect to James 2.

If you have questions on the material that has been presented, then come back with the questions, but at least work with what has been provided to you various times.

The reason is where I am now is that I blindly believed everything I was told in Protestansim. Now you ask me to do the same thing with Catholicism. No thank you. I'll keep asking and studying and whatever it takes until *I* understand it. I'm thrilled that you do but it does me no good whatsoever.

 

[twosid]

Ok We are Saved by Grace alone but our Salvation is given to those that persevere by Faith and Works....

Therefore, Jesus and his Sacrifice in order for us to have the Hope of Salvation is the Gift that we have been given.

Salvation and the Hope that we have of it is something that needs to be worked out with Faith and in fear and trembling and through Works....

Our Salvation is something that we can ourselves give away....by rejecting the Saving Grace that saved us to begin with...thus until we persevere until the end which is a combination with Act of Faith and the Acts of Works combined working hand in hand then we can then have some assurity of our Salvation.

Pax Christi
Debi

Can you list these works for me so I can see if we are on the same page?

 

[Debi1967]

Can you list these works for me so I can see if we are on the same page?

How do you list Works? I believe that for each individual it is different. For some people I believe that just the act of Faith itself is hard for them to accomplish and therefore that is a Work....for others it is easy and so for them their worship and adherence to the principles set before us, and always trying hard to remember to be the example of the Lord that we are told to be, what we are called to do, to walk the way He walked, that is what constitutes Works....

I do not believe it is something that is necessarily something that we consciencely have to do every day to look for things to do as long as we are doing the things we are asked to do.

To remember the person we love and to remember to think of them and cherish them...
To remember our Children always and to love them and provide the best way we can for them ....

Stuff like that ....But especially to remember to put the Lord first in everything we do...

Does this answer your question?

Pax Christi
Debi