works

[m4dskillz]

this is a pretty simple query. What is your stance on works? Are they simply a natural result of faith? Do they reflect a stronger faith, and does more devout = a different position in heaven than a "minimalist" Christian? Do works or your "level" of faith make a difference in heaven? Give me your thoughts.

 

[Maximus]

We are firmly with St. James. See Chapter 2 of his famous book that was included in the New Testament.

 

[m4dskillz]

I'm asking for the orthodox interpretation of james, then, to put it more clearly. Can my questions be answered in layman's terms for me?

 

[Happy Orthodox]

Le'me try... (looks around to see if there are any stones lying around, pushes some of them away with her foot)

Works in Orthodoxy are a reflection of your faith. They do not count by themselves, but only when you do them with faith and in the name of the Lord. Again, because they REFLECT the faith that is inside, and there is no other way to see what kind of faith you have other than through your actions. Remember the parable of the seed and four kinds of soils? Our works, therefore, are revealing what kind of soil we have, meaning, how much devoted to Christ we are. The Lord also tested Abraham, remember, when He ordered to sacrifice his son?

Another thing is that Orthodox value inner work much more than outer. Meaning, you need to avoid sinning in your mind and heart more than in your deeds, because "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Deeds come out of the heart, and so the heart should be the target of our attention and work. That is the real spiritual work. Example of that is trying to humble yourself, not to get angry and irritated, not to judge, to avoid lustful thoughts etc. And if you cleance yourself inside, then the outside would also be clean, as Christ explained.

Also, works do not pile up so that in Heaven they might be "counted" as if in an earthly court. Sometimes we use this allegory, though, for convenience, but that is not the real matter. The good works of the heart purity it. For example, you are fighting pride and humble yourself all the time without laziness and carelessness, trusting God. And then your heart gradually changes and becomes humble in its nature, or more pure. The dirt that we have in our hearts and that forces us to sin, so that we cannot resist it, is cleanced out when we try to resist sin in the name of the Lord. And, actually, it is the Lord who purifies us. And then, when we come to Heaven, we get what we get according to our spiritual condition, or likeness of the Lord -- are we pure like the Lord, or dirty like the deamons? Did we want to fight our pride honestly and without pitying ourselves? Or did we really, deep inside, want to be higher/better/smarter than people around us? How much love did we have? And I let somebody else describe why this matters and tell about the mechanism of "judgement" which is also an allegory.

So, works do matter a whole lot, and not of their own value, but because of what they reveal about ourselves and how they influence our spiritual condition. Hope this helps.

*runs away before they finish reading her post*

 

[gorion]

I (and I mean I not all of Orthodoxy) believe the works James is talking about is exactly what H.O. is describing. Inner works, the works of the spirit or even the fruits. We should strive to obtain all of the fruits and then the works of the hands will be a natural result.

For example: A person can work a lifetime for charitable organisations but never really Love as we are commanded to. And so never shows true faith. But a person who truly Loves and is Patient and Kind will naturally accomplish many good deeds and show true faith.

So you see Faith that does not produce spiritual fruits or in other words does not do spiritual works is indeed dead. But simply giving money to someone is not proof of a faith that is alive either.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

this is a pretty simple query. What is your stance on works? Are they simply a natural result of faith? Do they reflect a stronger faith, and does more devout = a different position in heaven than a "minimalist" Christian? Do works or your "level" of faith make a difference in heaven? Give me your thoughts.

James 2 - no interpretation, just take it at face value.

Or, for the same answer expressed in a completely different way, look at it like this: Neither works nor faith save us, as they are both things that we do on our own strength. The only thing that can save us is GRACE. However, God will not force His Grace on us. I know some Protestants teach that He does; however, true love is always manifested in true freedom, and a God of real love could never force anyone to accept His Love.

So, having that in mind, only God's grace can save us, but He will not force us to take it. We must COOPERATE with His Grace, in a synergistic relationship. For us to not cooperate but just passively receive it is not a relationship. Again, that would not be love.

And...in relationship, we don't think...oh, what do I have to do to keep this relationship? We just DO! We just... RELATE! It's faith, it's works, it's sacraments, it's prayer, it's worship, it's loving our neighbor.... it's everything. We don't compartmentalize it into neat little categories... like "faith" over there, "works" over there.... it is all an organic whole. So when someone asks, "Which saves us - faith or works?" - we answer, "YES!"

I have been blissfully happily married to the man of my dreams for a little over a year. And marriage is work - it involves all of me, as a whole person - and I have to DO things to keep it alive. Can you imagine how awful it would be to be married to someone you never talked to, never saw, never thought about - never did things for...

...what would be the point?

And how much more true this is of the relationship between Christ and the Church!

The point of the Christian life is not to be declared innocent after having been guilty before God. We don't buy into that model of salvation. Instead, salvation is growing into the image and likeness of God and becoming, as Scripture says, partakers of the Divine Nature.

And that can't happen without effort - because God won't force that Nature on us!

I tend to go in a lot of directions when I answer inquiries, so I hope this made sense. We love talking about our Holy Faith, so feel free to ask whatever you like!

LK

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anonykat again.

That was just a fantastic answer, honey.

Love,
Moses

 

[MariaRegina]

this is a pretty simple query. What is your stance on works? Are they simply a natural result of faith? Do they reflect a stronger faith, and does more devout = a different position in heaven than a "minimalist" Christian? Do works or your "level" of faith make a difference in heaven? Give me your thoughts.

What is your definition of works?

One of my brothers seems to believe that Baptism is a work.
That prayer is work.
That reading the scripture is work.
That doing any charitable work is work.
That living is work.

Seems like he thinks that faith is a lazy excuse not to do any work.
Of course, he won't say that.

He prays and reads the Bible, but if others do that, well, that's work.
It all seems so hypocritical. Then he calls me a hypocrite.
Pot calling the kettle black.
Pray for him as I do.

Orthodoxy frees us of that.
We are told not to judge, but to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
We are told to confess our sins.
We are told to pray without ceasing as St. Paul instructed.
We are told to take care of the widow as the Scripture dictates.
We are told to love our enemies.
Is this work?

 

[talitha]

hi, i just wanted to pop in and say how wonderful these posts are, particularly yours, Happy Orthodox -- and that is my favorite RO church, in your avatar..... I have a pin with a painting of it on there...... such a wonderful artist too.....

blessings on all my Orthodox brothers and sisters (well, I consider you all that way).....
tal

PS I just gotta LOL about the expression "minimalist" Christian..... t

 

[Kolya]

What is your definition of works?
Orthodoxy frees us of that.
We are told not to judge, but to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
We are told to confess our sins.
We are told to pray without ceasing as St. Paul instructed.
We are told to take care of the widow as the Scripture dictates.
We are told to love our enemies.
Is this work?

The lightest and the heaviest burdens we are EVER called to bear.

Thanks Aria

 

[talitha]

Enemies are heavy -- love is light.

 

[Kolya]

Enemies are heavy -- love is light.

Too true, but we are still to love the enemies.

It truly is a miracle when the Holy Spirit can turn your hatred for someone into love enough to pray for them. I know, 'cause it happened to me. And you know what, I love that person so much now I could cry;and they probably don't even know it!

 

[MariaRegina]

Too true, but we are still to love the enemies.

It truly is a miracle when the Holy Spirit can turn your hatred for someone into love enough to pray for them. I know, 'cause it happened to me. And you know what, I love that person so much now I could cry;and they probably don't even know it!

True .... love makes the burden and the work light and sweet.

 

[Happy Orthodox]

hi, i just wanted to pop in and say how wonderful these posts are, particularly yours, Happy Orthodox -- and that is my favorite RO church, in your avatar..... I have a pin with a painting of it on there...... such a wonderful artist too.....

blessings on all my Orthodox brothers and sisters (well, I consider you all that way).....
tal

PS I just gotta LOL about the expression "minimalist" Christian..... t

Thanks talitha! We are all sisters and brothers, because we are children of one Father