works

[m4dskillz]

this is a pretty simple query. What is your stance on works? Are they simply a natural result of faith? Do they reflect a stronger faith, and does more devout = a different position in heaven than a "minimalist" Christian? Give me your thoughts.

 

[Protoevangel]

this is a pretty simple query. What is your stance on works? Are they simply a natural result of faith? Do they reflect a stronger faith, and does more devout = a different position in heaven than a "minimalist" Christian? Give me your thoughts.

Andreae, Chemnitz and Chytraeus put it better than I ever could, so if toy will forgive me for my lazyness, I'll just copy their answer:

1. That good works certainly and without doubt follow true faith, if it is not a dead, but a living faith, as fruits of a good tree.

2. We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4, 6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2, 8. 9.

3. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6, 14; 7, 6; 8, 14.

6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

7. Yet this is not to be understood otherwise than as the Lord Christ and His apostles themselves declare, namely, regarding the liberated spirit, that it does not do this from fear of punishment, like a servant, but from love of righteousness, like children, Rom. 8, 15.

8. Although this voluntariness [liberty of spirit] in the elect children of God is not perfect, but burdened with great weakness, as St. Paul complains concerning himself, Rom. 7, 14-25; Gal. 5, 17;

9. Nevertheless, for the sake of the Lord Christ, the Lord does not impute this weakness to His elect, as it is written: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, Rom. 8, 1.

10. We believe, teach, and confess also that not works maintain faith and salvation in us, but the Spirit of God alone, through faith, of whose presence and indwelling good works are evidences.

 

[Bokhard]

What are your thoughts on heaven? Is it the same for everyone? Aside from "getting into heaven" through faith, would a stronger faith change the nature of eternity in heaven?

 

[m4dskillz]

yes, bokhard, i'm wondering the same thing.

 

[cenimo]

Luther considered the book of James to be like the straw in the manger. Yes, sure, it was there, but the focus is Jesus.

In the Gospel of John we find:

John 6:28-29 NIV
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?

29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Just me, but that pretty well gives us a Biblical definition of works. Come to belief. As uncomplicated as can be. Like I said, just me, but I think anything beyond that, anyone who insists on good deeds, etc. is refusing to accept the absolute gift that salvation is and in their own human ego-centric way trying to play a part in obtaining theirs.

 

[LilLamb219]

The works that are good according to God are those He does through us because we have faith in Him. Any other works we attempt to do on our own for our selfish reasons (whether it's to attain any reward here or thereafter) are sinful as the motivation is for our own gain.

 

[Breetai]

What are your thoughts on heaven? Is it the same for everyone? Aside from "getting into heaven" through faith, would a stronger faith change the nature of eternity in heaven?

There are certain rewards in heaven.

 

[LilLamb219]

There are certain rewards in heaven.

Lutherans believe those rewards are according to God's good will.

 

[RedneckAnglican]

[BIBLE][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 14:1-3 1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; F80 if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. F81 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.[/font][/BIBLE]

that's all i need...I'm happy with the mansion...I'm not worried that if I give more money to the United Way then I get cable...

 

[Breetai]

Lutherans believe those rewards are according to God's good will.

I am Lutheran, but I'm Christian first. So I display the Christian icon instead of the Lutheran icon.

Check out 1 Thes. 2:19; 2 Tim. 4:8; 1 Peter 5:4; 1 Cor. 9:25; James 1:12. These are the verses that talk about certain "crowns" that will be given to certain people; depending on what happened in their life.

Also check out Matt. 16:27; Rom. 14:10-12; 2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 22:12.

For example, here's one of the verses. This is a recurring theme thoughout the entire Bible.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Lutheran theologians don't seem to have a problem agreeing with this:



Degrees of Rewards (From LCMS.org)

Q. According to the answer on the "All Sins the Same?" page the LCMS teaches that "all sins come equally under God's judgment," and therefore all sins are equal--whether sins of thought or deed, or even perhaps where our earthly laws would have us believe one sin is of greater wrong than another (for example, murdering someone versus swearing). Yet on your "Degrees of Heaven/Hell" page you say that in Hell the degree of torment will be "determined by the nature of the sins to be punished" and in Heaven "there will be degrees of glory corresponding to the differences of work and fidelity here on earth." This doesn't seem to make sense to me: If all sins are the same equally under God's judgment in their capacity to separate us from the love of God, and God sees all sin weighing equally, how then can we at the same time be evaluated by degree with regards to heaven/hell?

A. It is important to note that those texts that refer to what theologians have called "degrees of glory" in heaven do not belong in the category of merit, as if to say that we earn by our works enviable positions of higher or lower honor in heaven, depending on how God "evaluates" us. Rather, these passages speak about the rewards which God bestows on His children in heaven who share equally in holiness and eternal bliss--all to the praise of His glorious grace. These eternal rewards will elicit praise when the saints in heaven experience the fulfillment of the prophet Daniel: "Those who are wise [that is, those who trust in the Lord] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever" (12:3).

To preserve clarity in this area of biblical teaching, it is important, in general, to maintain a clear distinction between how people get to heaven, and once they get there, the gifts (rewards) that God bestows on those who have believed in His Son and our Savior. As one Lutheran theologian has written, "It [the matter of degrees of glory] is to be referred not to eternal life as such, but to the rewards in eternal life."

There is no conflict between speaking of "degrees of punishment," which are based entirely on what people deserve because of their sins, and "degrees of glory" which are based entirely not on what people deserve but on what they receive by God's grace for the purpose of bringing Him praise and glory.

 

[cenimo]

Just something to think about - if a person's motivation for doing good works is that there are rewards in heaven, is that proper motivation? Or is that the human ego-centric nature kicking in - "Well, I do good works so I will be rewarded in heaven." God knows our hearts and would see right through that.

And hey, it's heaven - in heaven I really doubt we'll be capable of envy, so you wouldn't care if someone else got more rewards, no would you?

Just my $.02

 

[LilLamb219]

Exactly!!! Cenimo said it so well!

With our sinful natures in the way, of course it's up to God's good grace to determine the rewards we receive. When the disciples were fighting over which position they'll have, left or right, Jesus corrected them on that

 

[Music4Hym777]

Hey Breetai!

Welcome back! Its been awhile since you've been around here! Stop by more often!

Mon

 

[Breetai]

Hey Breetai!

Welcome back! Its been awhile since you've been around here! Stop by more often!

Mon

I'd stop by here more, but there's nothing in the Lutheran forums that really catches my interest!

Thanks for the welcome back.

 

[Music4Hym777]

I'd stop by here more, but there's nothing in the Lutheran forums that really catches my interest!

Thanks for the welcome back.

Yeah, TCCL is crazy, but if you were around more, you might see some interesting things.

 

[Protoevangel]

I'd stop by here more, but there's nothing in the Lutheran forums that really catches my interest!

Thanks Breetai, love you too!

 

[LilLamb219]

I'd stop by here more, but there's nothing in the Lutheran forums that really catches my interest!

Then you need to start some interesting topics of discussion

 

[Breetai]

Thanks Breetai, love you too!

OK, that was interesting!

 

[BigNorsk]

I have wondered what it means to be an "astroboy in Korea". Would you care to share?

Marv

 

[KagomeShuko]

I have wondered what it means to be an "astroboy in Korea". Would you care to share?

Marv

I have wondered that, too.

Stein Auf!
Bridget