Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Sure, as intimate as puppets can get.Oh no doubt your participation is involved! I never say otherwise. But your participation is not what brings about your regeneration, and your participation subsequent to regeneration is also God's work. Not "a joint effort", as though we improve on what God does, but God in us doing in us. Involved? —oh my yes! Intimately!
Been there done that. Go back and read my posts in various threads if it's wisdomn that you seek.Falls somewhat short of demonstration. . .
Then, as I surmised, you don't know what I believe, even after all this back and forth on how many threads... All you know is your strawmen. "But I know they are true, not strawmen! After all, I built them myself!"Sure, as intimate as puppets can get.
Say what??? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him go read fhansen's posts..."Been there done that. Go back and read my posts in various threads if it's wisdomn that you seek.
Whether or not you maintain that the believer doesn't have to struggle, in your theology his victory is guaranteed, which it is not. And this is why so many passages exhort and plead with believers to be vigilant and to persevere, because of the possilbity of failing. We don't even have the abiloty to predict our own perseverance for that matter.Oh no doubt your participation is involved! I never say otherwise. But your participation is not what brings about your regeneration, and your participation subsequent to regeneration is also God's work. Not "a joint effort", as though we improve on what God does, but God in us doing in us. Involved? —oh my yes! Intimately!
I agree your strawman is irrational. You even make as though (according to Reformed Theology, (or perhaps you mean, my theology)), the believer doesn't have to struggle to obey, to be continually putting to death the old man, to be in agony over his own sinfulness, to be exhausting himself and sometimes even in despair over his lack of Godliness, and to continue to plod on and on, pursuing the work of faithfulness in denial of self. You also don't seem to recognize (in our theology) the joy of knowing Christ, in the beauty of God's majesty and the power of his purity.
It's not a strawman even if you prefer asserting that it is. If a person is totally changed in disposition such that they can no longer choose but in such a way as to be saved, then they are puppets; they're destiny is totally out of their hands. A rose is still a rose by any other name. And why contest this,? You continously maintain that very thing; that it's all predetermined by God.Then, as I surmised, you don't know what I believe, even after all this back and forth on how many threads... All you know is your strawmen. "But I know they are true, not strawmen! After all, I built them myself!"
Yes, yes, yes! I'm sorry Mark but I know the gospel. And wisdom is better, and to be sought, and to be had, according to God's Word. And I'm only half serious about my posts. But as I've stated, people need to do their homewpork, to not dismiss history, to obejectively read the patristics, the decrees of the councils, early church histories, lives of the saints, ancient theological works and catechisms, etc, to know the faith.Say what??? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him go read fhansen's posts..."
Fhansen, I thought you were better than this.
After all this time of talking back and forth, you and I, you haven't picked up on the notion that I don't say that our perseverance is automatic, but rather that it is sure? I certainly CAN fall away, and, in fact, if I don't persevere, I was none of his. But for the elect, the perseverance WILL HAPPEN. And God will see to it.Whether or not you maintain that the believer doesn't have to struggle, in your theology his victory is guaranteed, which it is not. And this is why so many passages exhort and plead with believers to be vigilant and to persevere, because of the possilbity of failing. We don't even have the abiloty to predict our own perseverance for that matter.
No one argues that the elect will fall away. It would be redundant to say that the elect will be saved. The problem is that it's a moot point while here on earth-because we cannot know with 100% certainty whether we're numbered among that group or not even as some maintain that we can. So, have you been you regenerated? And, are the regenerate guaranteed heaven?After all this time of talking back and forth, you and I, you haven't picked up on the notion that I don't say that our perseverance is automatic, but rather that it is sure? I certainly CAN fall away, and, in fact, if I don't persevere, I was none of his. But for the elect, the perseverance WILL HAPPEN. And God will see to it.
Maybe I never asked you to show me how anyone can undo what God has decreed.
Were you a puppet when you were born the first time?It's not a strawman even if you prefer asserting that it is. If a person is totally changed in disposition such that they can no longer choose but in such a way as to be saved, then they are puppets; they're destiny is totally out of their hands. A rose is still a rose by any other name. And why contest this,? You continously maintain that very thing; that it's all predetermined by God.
Of course the regenerate are guaranteed heaven. But in spite of all the assurances, yes, I can fool myself. Does that make you feel better?No one argues that the elect will fall away. It would be redundant to say that the elect will be saved. The problem is that it's a moot point while here on earth-because we cannot know with 100% certainty whether we're numbered among that group or not even as some maintain that we can. So, have you been you regenerated? And, are the regenerate guaranteed heaven?
In other words, to see from a perspective unlike yours, means they lack wisdom. Of course wisdom is better and to be sought, and to be had, but really, even half serious, is a ludicrous attempt at glory robbing from the wisdom of God. I feel like getting sarcastic, how Job did to his 'friends'.Yes, yes, yes! I'm sorry Mark but I know the gospel. And wisdom is better, and to be sought, and to be had, according to God's Word. And I'm only half serious about my posts. But as I've stated, people need to do their homewpork, to not dismiss history, to obejectively read the patristics, the decrees of the councils, early church histories, lives of the saints, ancient theological works and catechisms, etc, to know the faith.
You may be pleased to learn that my outlook is not that my 'victory' is guaranteed, but that it is in GOD's hands. This story was written by him from the foundation of the world, and he will see it done. There's no puppetry in being IN CHRIST. But my efforts don't rate on any scale compared to what he is doing in me. Yet I find I am driven to do, nonetheless. No, in fact, I'm driven more than ever, knowing HE is the one doing this!Whether or not you maintain that the believer doesn't have to struggle, in your theology his victory is guaranteed, which it is not. And this is why so many passages exhort and plead with believers to be vigilant and to persevere, because of the possilbity of failing. We don't even have the abiloty to predict our own perseverance for that matter.
This is an almost embarrassingly self-serving attempt at a response. God directs us to seek wisdom and then having wisdom becomes glory robbing from Him. Sure. Of course. And, oh yes, Clare has it anyway. I wish she did. I seek no glory for myself, only the wisdom to know and defend the true gospel. And I do. I hate to see it subverted by a lack of wisdom, stemming from the Reformation.In other words, to see from a perspective unlike yours, means they lack wisdom. Of course wisdom is better and to be sought, and to be had, but really, even half serious, is a ludicrous attempt at glory robbing from the wisdom of God. I feel like getting sarcastic, how Job did to his 'friends'.
And @Clare73 knows the gospel too, and from what I can tell, knows it far better than you, who think you can add to what God has done by grace alone. And I'd take her wisdom 10 times out of 10 over yours. Just saying... Clare's no novice.
You may be pleased to learn that my outlook is not that my 'victory' is guaranteed, but that it is in GOD's hands. This story was written by him from the foundation of the world, and he will see it done. There's no puppetry in being IN CHRIST. But my efforts don't rate on any scale compared to what he is doing in me. Yet I find I am driven to do, nonetheless. No, in fact, I'm driven more than ever, knowing HE is the one doing this!
Fhansen, self-determination is a bummer, man. It never works out in the end.
No. The glory robbing is to claim wisdom is to be found in your posts, even if you are half serious in saying it. And I don't appreciate the mocking misrepresentation of what I said.This is an almost embarrassingly self-serving attempt at a response. God directs us to seek wisdom and then having wisdom becomes glory robbing from Him. Sure. Of course. And, oh yes, Clare has it anyway. I wish she did. I seek no glory for myself, only the wisdom to know and defend the true gospel. And I do. I hate to see it subverted by a lack of wisdom, stemming from the Reformation.
Now look who's bringing an either /or into it. You think it has to be either Adam who willed to sin, or God that decreed that Adam sin.It’s not either/or, but both/and, God and man. Did Adam determine his own choice to sin? Or did God tell Adam not to sin while predetermining that he would sin? It’s that sanity issue rearing it’s head again.
Sounds almost noble but either way, is your victroy not guaranteed by God? Or is it guaranteed? There seems to be no straight answer on this. To say that the will is uninvolved, or only involved as God determines, is nonsense, as if He couldn't make an independently morally accountable being, as if He's responsible for all choices, good or evil. We wouldn't even need to hear the word if that were the case.You may be pleased to learn that my outlook is not that my 'victory' is guaranteed, but that it is in GOD's hands. This story was written by him from the foundation of the world, and he will see it done. There's no puppetry in being IN CHRIST. But my efforts don't rate on any scale compared to what he is doing in me. Yet I find I am driven to do, nonetheless. No, in fact, I'm driven more than ever, knowing HE is the one doing this!
Fhansen, self-determination is a bummer, man. It never works out in the end.
I stand on what I said-you're still doing it. Does God want us to have wisdom or not? We can-and certainly should-ask Him for it. My posts are nothing but an accurate reflection of His revelation.No. The glory robbing is to claim wisdom is to be found in your posts, even if you are half serious in saying it. And I don't appreciate the mocking misrepresentation of what I said.
GOD's victory is guaranteed. Not mine, except it be in him. That is a straight answer. You want one that fits self-determinism.is your victroy not guaranteed by God? Or is it guaranteed? There seems to be no straight answer on this.
The mocking misrepresentation that I referred to was to make as though I did not believe "We can-and certainly should-ask Him for [wisdom]", and you are doing it again now, as though you never even read what I said.I stand on what I said-you're still doing it. Does God want us to have wisdom or not? We can-and certainly should-ask Him for it. My posts are nothing but an accurate reflection of His revelation.
#2 -- I see, the translators you prefer also happen to be the precise ones.
dikaiosis, dikaioma, dikaioo = legal and formal acquittal from guilt by God as Judge, the pronouncement of the sinner as righteous (by faith).
Yes, those can be translated as declared or aquitted, or simply made right or just,
Did #3 miss what #2 stated?#3 -- You stated this in post #57 about dikaioi:
"Dikaioi is a form of dikaiosis = declaration of right standing with God's justice.
And this is simply not the definition of dikaioi, having nothing to do with a declaration of anything, but simply meaning right or just.
The meaning of life is to glorify God by creating men and angels to serve as caretakers for His living ways, and in 343 William Lane Craig vs James White – Calvinism vs. Molinism on the Problem of Evil, 10:18-10:43, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcN-fisQRk. 274 so doing, to enjoy meaningful fellowship together. Creating a kingdom of sock-puppetted Yes-Men through exhaustive determinism would only amount to mediocrity, since it would not achieve meaningful fellowship, and therefore independent, autonomous libertarian free-will was necessary for God’s creation. God is in control, though not all-controlling, and is able to achieve His objective for humanity, despite the negative use of free-will by some, simply because God is all-powerful, all-wise and allknowing. In other words, God does not need to play both sides of the proverbial Chess Board in order to guarantee victory. Such a prospect literally terrifies Calvinists, but it also reveals that Calvinists don’t truly believe that God is all-powerful, all-wise and all-knowing, and hence needs determinismThen, as I surmised, you don't know what I believe, even after all this back and forth on how many threads... All you know is your strawmen. "But I know they are true, not strawmen! After all, I built them myself!"
Say what??? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him go read fhansen's posts..."
Fhansen, I thought you were better than this.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?