Works authenticate faith

k4c · Mar 24, 2011

Works of obedience to the commandments authenticate faith.

Authenticate: to establish as genuine.

This is important to understand when trying to understand the workings of salvation.

There is the initial justification of the sinner who is dead in their tresspasses and sins. This is all Jesus through faith in His death, resurrection and the new birth. But once a person comes alive and begins to grown in truth and knowledge he is responsible to continue to remain justifed in and through that relationship with Jesus.

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

In other words, we are justified by faith (that initial justification) but we are also justifed by our obedience to the Law in our daily life. When we do fall into sin we confess, God cleanes us.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Let me explain in more detail.

Abraham was counted as righteous through believing in what God said before he actually obeyed God.

Galatians 3:6 Thus Abraham "believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

But that belief was made authentic through works and must continue throughout life.

James 2:20-22 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Pythons · Mar 24, 2011

Works is our co-operation with the graces God gives us....
...Keeping the commandments is part of this.
...Finally, something I can agree with.

k4c · Mar 24, 2011

Pythons said:
Works is our co-operation with the graces God gives us....
...Keeping the commandments is part of this.
...Finally, something I can agree with.

If you agree with this then you have to agree with everything I post because this is the foundation of everything I post.

Kira Light · Mar 24, 2011

faith is dead without Sabbath-keeping.

k4c · Mar 24, 2011

Kira Light said:
faith is dead without Sabbath-keeping.

Sabbath keeping is a symptom that faith is alive. A symptom is a cause of something else.

Pythons · Mar 24, 2011

k4c said:
If you agree with this then you have to agree with everything I post because this is the foundation of everything I post.

Abraham found God's favor w/out the Sabbath....
...It's as if the Sabbath has become it's own form of idolatry.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
...It's as if the Sabbath has become it's own form of idolatry.

Like Marianism?

Pythons · Mar 25, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Like Marianism?

No, the honor I give to Mary does not hold a candle to the worship SDAism gives to the Sabbath...
...It almost appears as if Seventh-day Adventism worships the Sabbath.
...In fact the SDA Church down the street from where I live has "Saturday Worship" right on the reader board.
...Does that mean what it says or not?

k4c · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
Abraham found God's favor w/out the Sabbath....
...It's as if the Sabbath has become it's own form of idolatry.

We find favor with God when we live up to the light that we have.

We can read in Genesis 26 how Abraham obeyed God's commandments, statutes, and laws. God's Law existed before Sinai.

Genesis 26:5 "Because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Can you tell me, with all certainty, that Abrham did or did not keep the Sabbath holy by reading this verse?

We can also read in Exodus 16 how God tested Israel, who previously had been under pagan rule in Egypt for hundreds of years, to see if they would keep His Law. Law?

Exodus 16:4 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And the people shall go out and gather a certain quota every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in My law or not.

This test involved sending bread from heaven to see if they would honor the Sabbath. The holiness of the seventh day was established at creation and was to be honored since it's onset. It was identified as, God's Law, before Mt Sinai. It was establised as the standard for all when engraved in stone on Mt.Sinai and was then used as the covenant sign.

All this shows how the seventh day Sabbath was alive and well before Mt.Sinai, even if sinful man didn't acknowledge it.

As a matter of fact, Nehemiah tells us how God made known His Sabbath through Moses.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.

For God to be able to make something known means that it had to exsit prior to Sinai and prior to it being used as a covenant sign. Even the fourth commandment itself tells us to remember to keep it holy.

Exodus 20 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."

The word (remember) points us back to creation when God made the seventh day holy and now reminds His people to keep it holy.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
No, the honor I give to Mary does not hold a candle to the worship SDAism gives to the Sabbath...

Oh, I think you are being modest, after all your infallible leader said...

Vatican Information Service said:
John Paul II underlined that "the history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection." He concluded by asking all Christians "to make room (for Mary) in their daily lives, ACKNOWLEDGING HER PROVIDENTIAL ROLE IN THE PATH OF SALVATION"

Some other papal quotes to expose this idol worship...

Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow."

Pius X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of ALL favors which Jesus acquired for us by his death . . .

Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix."

Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946: "Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption."

Paul VI, Christi Matri. "The Church ... been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary ... For as St. Irenaeus says, she 'has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race"
John Paul II, Mother of the Redeemer, 1987.

Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: "For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary."

Leo XIII, Supremi Apostolatus, 1883: "O Mary, the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces."

Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body."

Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are: "In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us."

Plus XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, 1928: "Confiding in her intercession with Jesus, "the one Mediator of God and man, who wished to associate his own Mother with himself as the advocate of sinners, as the dispenser and mediatrix of grace."

Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary."
John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."

If you can provide official SDA doctrine that shows Sabbath as an object to be worshipped, I would appreciate it.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
...In fact the SDA Church down the street from where I live has "Saturday Worship" right on the reader board.
...Does that mean what it says or not?

Show me a church that does not say 'Sunday Worship'... obviously this is just what it appears to be; the day that worship service are held.

Pythons · Mar 25, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Show me a church that does not say 'Sunday Worship'... obviously this is just what it appears to be; the day that worship service are held.

In the interest of fellowship I would say any Catholic Church.....
...It generally says "Mass Schedule" with the times.
...I don't believe I've ever seen a Catholic Church which says "Sunday Worship".
...Ok, I've shown you a Church.

I suspect that the Orthodox Churches are similar......
...Only instead of saying Mass - they would say Devine Liturgy.

k4c · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
In the interest of fellowship I would say any Catholic Church.....
...It generally says "Mass Schedule" with the times.
...I don't believe I've ever seen a Catholic Church which says "Sunday Worship".
...Ok, I've shown you a Church.

I suspect that the Orthodox Churches are similar......
...Only instead of saying Mass - they would say Devine Liturgy.

He's got you there...I guess we're all Sabbath worshipers. We might as well eat some meat with the blood still in it too.

Pythons · Mar 25, 2011

k4c said:
He's got you there...I guess we're all Sabbath worshipers. We might as well eat some meat with the blood still in it too.

I'm pleased that you see what I was saying, i.e. "Saturday Worship" is like saying "idol worship"...
...Because the SDA signs invite folks to stop in for "Saturday Worship".
...Like hey, come here and worship Saturday with us.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
I'm pleased that you see what I was saying, i.e. "Saturday Worship" is like saying "idol worship"...
...Because the SDA signs invite folks to stop in for "Saturday Worship".
...Like hey, come here and worship Saturday with us.

Would you say a sign in a store that says 'Tueday Sale' means that they are in fact selling the day Tuesday? What kind of a discount do seniors get on buying a day?

Pythons · Mar 25, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Would you say a sign in a store that says 'Tueday Sale' means that they are in fact selling the day Tuesday? What kind of a discount do seniors get on buying a day?

No, I'm just saying that in the context of worship if somone said "Saturday or Sunday Worship"....
...It sounds like the day has become more important than the worship.

I was previously invited to an SDA church and even prior to getting into the Church.....
....I had several people tell me 'happy Sabbath' ( I mean everyone was saying it ).
....I was then taken to a pre-church Bible class and they said the same thing in there prior to the class.
....Then the leader makes a public prayer and thanks God for the Sabbath.

The class ended with another prayer where God was thanked for the Sabbath....
...Then we moved into the actual church and the pastor said 'happy sabbath'.
...Then made a prayer and thanked God for the Sabbath.

The homily was about the prodigal son which was actually not bad....
...But not ONCE did anyone make a prayer to God thanking Him for sending His Son Jesus?
...With all the 'happy sabbath's' and all the prayers ( public ) thanking God for the Sabbath.
...What would you think "Saturday Worship" means?

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 25, 2011

Pythons said:
The homily was about the prodigal son which was actually not bad....
...But not ONCE did anyone make a prayer to God thanking Him for sending His Son Jesus?
...With all the 'happy sabbath's' and all the prayers ( public ) thanking God for the Sabbath.
...What would you think "Saturday Worship" means?

Yeah, what's up with people being thankful and glad for His Holy day. I sure hope God is not displeased with our praise of His day.

The Sabbath should be a celebration of fellowship and love for one another and a time to spend drawing closer to God, getting to know His true character... He has blessed and sanctified the day so we can partake of that blessing by honouring it (and by extension Him) in the right way.

Look, I will not defend all adventists on what their meaning of the Sabbath is, or how they view it in the context of the gospel and revealing the character of God. The correct way to view it, is in love. If we 'do' the Sabbath out of obligation and legal obedience, we miss the point of it. No doubt their are many in the church, ministers included, that do not get this. Love is the foundation of God's government... God IS love. Everything has to be in that context, otherwise it is not of God.

Pythons · Mar 26, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Yeah, what's up with people being thankful and glad for His Holy day. I sure hope God is not displeased with our praise of His day.

I'm not condemning SDA's for saying 'happy sabbath' to each other....
...With the same vigor and repetitivness Galapagos Iguanas shake salt out of their mouth.
...Nor am I saying it's a wrong practice.
...In the interest in fostering deeper fellowship I will only say it was my experience.
...The SDA church I attended clearly idolized the Sabbath above and beyond Christ.
...If one simply counted the times Sabbath was said, God was thanked for giving the Sabbath, etc.

ECR said:
The Sabbath should be a celebration of fellowship and love for one another and a time to spend drawing closer to God, getting to know His true character... He has blessed and sanctified the day so we can partake of that blessing by honouring it (and by extension Him) in the right way.

Ok, that makes sense to me - could there be a danger in elevating the Sabbath.....
...To such a degree Christ plays 3rd chair to it?
...It's just that I've never heard any Priest make a public prayer thanking God for Sunday.
...Or thanking God for Mary or the Saints and having everyone else do it.
...Dozens and dozens of times prior to the Mass.

If you visited a Catholic Church and witnessed 'everyone you could see'....
...Telling each other 'happy Sunday' - to the level of a practical joke.
...Then listened to 3 public prayers offered, each thanking God for Sunday.
...Then the pastor prior to his homily offers a public prayer thanking God for Sunday.
...And there is even a projector set up blasting 'happy Sunday' on the wall above the pastors head.
...Would you be within reason to believe Catholics had elevated Sunday to the level of idolatry?
...For a deeper understanding of our respective faiths I offer this for consideration.

ECR said:
Look, I will not defend all adventists on what their meaning of the Sabbath is, or how they view it in the context of the gospel and revealing the character of God. The correct way to view it, is in love. If we 'do' the Sabbath out of obligation and legal obedience, we miss the point of it. No doubt their are many in the church, ministers included, that do not get this. Love is the foundation of God's government... God IS love. Everything has to be in that context, otherwise it is not of God.

Nor am I asking you to defend it - that's not my place here at all...
...I only wanted to understand why the SDA Church sign down the street says Saturday Worship.
...And why everyone says 'happy sabbath' and offers prayers thanking God for the Sabbath.
...And not a mention of Christ? It just seemed like honoring the created over the creator.

k4c · Mar 26, 2011

Pythons said:
I'm not condemning SDA's for saying 'happy sabbath' to each other....
...With the same vigor and repetitivness Galapagos Iguanas shake salt out of their mouth.
...Nor am I saying it's a wrong practice.
...In the interest in fostering deeper fellowship I will only say it was my experience.
...The SDA church I attended clearly idolized the Sabbath above and beyond Christ.
...If one simply counted the times Sabbath was said, God was thanked for giving the Sabbath, etc.

Ok, that makes sense to me - could there be a danger in elevating the Sabbath.....
...To such a degree Christ plays 3rd chair to it?
...It's just that I've never heard any Priest make a public prayer thanking God for Sunday.
...Or thanking God for Mary or the Saints and having everyone else do it.
...Dozens and dozens of times prior to the Mass.

If you visited a Catholic Church and witnessed 'everyone you could see'....
...Telling each other 'happy Sunday' - to the level of a practical joke.
...Then listened to 3 public prayers offered, each thanking God for Sunday.
...Then the pastor prior to his homily offers a public prayer thanking God for Sunday.
...And there is even a projector set up blasting 'happy Sunday' on the wall above the pastors head.
...Would you be within reason to believe Catholics had elevated Sunday to the level of idolatry?
...For a deeper understanding of our respective faiths I offer this for consideration.

Nor am I asking you to defend it - that's not my place here at all...
...I only wanted to understand why the SDA Church sign down the street says Saturday Worship.
...And why everyone says 'happy sabbath' and offers prayers thanking God for the Sabbath.
...And not a mention of Christ? It just seemed like honoring the created over the creator.

You know this whole dissusion is silly...

The sign on the SDA church is just telling you we have worship service on Saturday, it's not saying we worship the Sabbath.

Pythons · Mar 26, 2011

k4c said:
You know this whole dissusion is silly...

The sign on the SDA church is just telling you we have worship service on Saturday, it's not saying we worship the Sabbath.

The following is my question K4C....
...Perhaps you will be able to see the logic.

Ellen White said:
Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. To be redeemed means to cease from sin. No heart that is stirred to rebellion against the law of God has any union with Christ, who died to vindicate the law and exalt it before all nations, tongues, and peoples. Pharisaic self-complacency and bold assumptions of holiness are abundant.[/COLOR]

RH 1895 said:
Representing the law of God in its true character arouses the enmity of Satan. Those who love God with all the heart, will love the law of his kingdom. They will not only profess to be guided by its principles, but they will actually live them out, even in a world that is no more favorable to the development of Christian principles than were the inhabitants of the world before the flood, of whom it is written that the thoughts and imaginations of their hearts were evil, and only evil continually. A similar condition of society exists in our world today, and if those who claim to be God's commandment-keeping people do not put in practice the principles of the law which Christ came to our world to vindicate, pronouncing it holy, just, and good, they misrepresent the character and mission of their professed Master

Ellen White said that Christ died to vindicate God's law dozens of times....
...Said that Jesus came to earth to vindicate the law - that was the reason Jesus came.
...Ellen White also said the Sabbath commandment was the most important commandment.
...Therefore Jesus came to earth to vindicate God's law.
...Which would require that Jesus was subservient to the Sabbath.

In effect "God so loved the world He sent His only Son"......
...appears to be interpreted as; God so loved His law that He sent His only Son.
...That He might vindicate the law via His Son.

Generally, people talk about or mention what's most important to them....
...If Jesus came to "vindicate" God's law than logically the most important part of Salvation becomes the law.
...Logically the most important part of that law would be most mentioned.
...Therefore the repeated affirmation of "Happy Sabbath" and repetition of prayers thanking God for the Sabbath.
...Would lead one to conclude the Sabbath is the most important thing.

I considered 'the Cross' in my observations of SDA ligurgical culture and was perplexed a bit...
...Perhaps you or ECR could help me in my quest of a deeper understanding.

Ellen White said that "She vindicated what Jesus vindicated".....
...Which means Ellen White also continues to "vindicate the law".

Ellen White said:
Satan will continue to bring in his erroneous theories and to claim that his sentiments are true. Seducing spirits are at work. I am to meet the danger positively, denying the right of anyone to use my writings to serve the devil's purpose to allure and deceive the people of God. God has spared my life that I may present the testimonies given me, to vindicate that which God vindicates, and to denounce every sophistry [intended] to deceive if possible the very elect.--Ms 126, 1905, pp. 3, 7. ("A Warning Against Present Dangers," typed December 29, 1905.) {5MR 144.1}

Ellen shares her vision of going to heaven with the 144000 and says the following.

Ellen White said:
At first we did not see Jesus on the cloud, but as it drew near the earth, we could behold his lovely person. This cloud when it first appeared was the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven. The voice of the Son of God called forth the sleeping saints, clothed with a glorious immortality. The living saints were changed in a moment, and caught up with them in the cloudy chariot. It looked all over glorious as it rolled upwards. On either side of the
chariot were wings, and beneath it wheels. And as the chariot rolled upwards, the wheels cried Holy, and the wings as they moved, cried Holy, and the retinue of Holy Angels around the cloud cried Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty. And the saints in the cloud cried Glory,
Hallelujah. And the cloudy chariot rolled upwards to the Holy City. Jesus threw open the gates of the Golden City, and led us in. [ii] Here we were made welcome, for we had kept the
Commandments of God, and had a right to the tree of life.

Ellen White said:
I saw that we had a perfect right in the city for we had kept the commandments of God, and heaven, sweet heaven, is our home for we have kept the commandments of God.--Letter 3, 1851, pp. 1, 2. (To Sister Harriet, August 11, 1851.)

Do these teachings factor in the repeated 'Happy Sabbath" affirmations...
...I'm guessing it's the same way at every SDA Church and had a got up earlier I would have tested another one.

Perhaps I could wear my spy cam into one next week and document the first 5 minutes or so....
...Thank you all for the fellowship as we grow in understanding each other.

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