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simchat_torah

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Shalom all!

As I have stated before, I am working on an article that I'd like to publish someday concerning G-d's relationship with the Gentile and their role in the whole scheme of things. Before I seep out any particulars I'd like to hear from all of your varying view points. I won't correct anyone here, I just want this thread to be a place where I can get info from you guys... a place where I can pick your brains.

So, if you don't mind me asking questions post here!

I guess I can start it off by simply asking everyone if they see a difference in the role of a Jew and the role of a gentile. Don't worry, I'm not going to jump down your throat and argue. I just want to hear what you have to say.

sooo... again, Is there a difference in the spiritual role between teh Jew and the Gentile from the beginning of time to today?

:: can of worms is now open :: ;)

shalom,
-Yafet.
 

KelsayDL

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Hello Yafet,

I've been awaiting this article for a long time. But good things shouldn't be rushed.

I'm pressed for time right now and will be gone all weekend, but I have some very broad brush strokes to make.

As you know, I'm new to this faith (MJ). And so far it's only a theological change. I have yet to act on what has been revealed as truth.

I don't know that I'm convinced there is a difference in roles for the people of God.

Yes, some are born Jewish, others like me were not. The grafted in teaching has it's roots in the Tanach, not Pauline christianity.

When I read the passages about the stranger joining themselves to Israel and the God thereof, I can't see God differentiating between the two.

One passage says the stranger joining himself to Israel will be as a first born son.
The first born son was a position of honor was it not?

As far as touching on so called new testament verses, I have a problem with Yeshua saying that those who do and teach the Torah will be considered great in heaven, when I see some in MJ say that the Torah is only for the natural born Jew.

Will only Jews be great in Heaven? Are *gentiles* to be lesser than them for all eternity?

bah...

Running outta time. Sorry I can't be more detailed right now, but I believe you know what I reference and where to locate them in the word.

I look forward to your article friend. :wave:
 
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simchat_torah

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Thanks Kelsay.
I don't know that I'm convinced there is a difference in roles for the people of God.


It's quite alright, I'd like to hear all the perspectives of our local messianics.

Will only Jews be great in Heaven? Are *gentiles* to be lesser than them for all eternity?


To be honest, I'm speaking more of the roles we play here on earth... and also of a prophetic sense. I firmly believe that as we stand before HaShem, all will be stripped away: race, sex... everything.
So, basically, I'm speaking of this life. What differences are there in the roles that we play as gentiles and Jews? Any? How about in a prophetic sense?

thanks and shalom,
yafet.
 
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simchat_torah said:
Shalom all!

I guess I can start it off by simply asking everyone if they see a difference in the role of a Jew and the role of a gentile. Don't worry, I'm not going to jump down your throat and argue. I just want to hear what you have to say.
Shalom simchat_torah,

I will begin with this verse out of the B'rit Khadashah:
The Good News According to Yochanan
4:22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

So salvation came from the Jews. Well what I see is that they are a special people because YHVH appointed the Scriptures to them so they can preserve them. Remember in Jerimiah that YHVH said that Judah did worse then Israel(that he divorced). HE, YHVH, preserved Judah(Jews) because of King David, a man after HIS own heart and also the promises that HE made to Abraham and others.

Tell me, why did Yeshua make Disciples of the Jews first? If in fact Yeshua was starting a New Religion with Him as the to be worshipped then why not go to the Gentiles first?
The reason is because the Jews had the Truth in their hands the whole time, The Tanakh. The only problem is the majority were living by MAN's Doctrines, the Fence laws made by Teachers of Scripture thinking they could make it supposedly harder for a man to not break the commandments of YHVH.

Paul's Letter to the Romans
2:1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things. 2:2 We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 2:3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 2:5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 2:6 who "will pay back to everyone according to their works:" 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 2:8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don't obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath and indignation, 2:9oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who works evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek(gentile).


2:10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 2:13 For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified 2:14 (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, 2:15in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) 2:16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Good News, by Yeshua the Messiah.

2:17 Indeed you bear the name of a Jew, and rest on the law, and glory in God,cb 2:18and know his will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 2:19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babies, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth. 2:21 You therefore who teach another, don't you teach yourself? You who proclaim that a man shouldn't steal, do you steal? 2:22 You who say a man shouldn't commit adultery. Do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 2:23 You who glory in the law, through your disobedience of the law do you dishonor God? 2:24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," just as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision indeed profits, if you are a doer of the law, but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 2:26 If therefore the uncircumcised keep the ordinances of the law, won't his uncircumcision be accounted as circumcision? 2:27 Won't the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfills the law, judge you, who with the letter and circumcision are a transgressor of the law? 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; 2:29but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

3:1 Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision? 3:2 Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some were without faith? Will their lack of faith nullify the faithfulness of God? 3:4May it never be! Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar. As it is written, "That you might be justified in your words, and might prevail when you come into judgment." 3:5 But if our unrighteousness commends the righteousness of God, what will we say? Is God unrighteous who inflicts wrath? I speak like men do. 3:6 May it never be! For then how will God judge the world? 3:7 For if the truth of God through my lie abounded to his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 3:8 Why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), "Let us do evil, that good may come?" Those who say so are justly condemned. 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
...
3:27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what manner of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 3:28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn't he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 3:30 since indeed there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. 3:31 Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.
...
9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath made for destruction, 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 9:24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?


I'll let the words speak for themselves.

Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians
12:12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Messiah. 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all immersed into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit. 12:14For the body is not one member, but many.
...
12:27 Now you are the body of Messiah, and members individually. 12:28 God has set some in the assembly: first emissaries, second prophets, third teachers, then miracle workers, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, and various kinds of languages. 12:29 Are all emissaries? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all miracle workers? 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with various languages? Do all interpret? 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. Moreover, I show a most excellent way to you.
In my opinion anyone whether Jew or Gentile can seek the Best gifts. Also remember that the first will be last and the last will be first. So if I am last I shall be first and visa versa. If I serve now I will then be served. Not that I am doing the serving to be served later.
sooo... again, Is there a difference in the spiritual role between teh Jew and the Gentile from the beginning of time to today?

:: can of worms is now open :: ;)

shalom,
-Yafet.
:: a can of worms is needed for fishing :: ;)
I would have to say, once a Gentile or Jew come to believe in the Messiah Yeshua they are therefore part of Israel and there is no difference. Also I would have to say that it has been that way since the Jews began with Judah. Then it wasn't just Judah for there were other brothers Tribes of Israel.

Shabbat Shalom,

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koilias

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Like Kelsay, this a burning subject for me as a gentile too!

Glad you're soliciting from us!

I disagree with Kelsay that we as gentiles need to be "under the Torah". That covenant was not made with us at Sinai. We are not "under Torah" for our own good, it's haShem's grace to us, since we are weaker than our Jewish brethren in respect to the Jewish way of life. HOWEVER, we ARE meant to keep as much Torah as we can...it's to our credit in heaven!!! If a gentile keeps Shabbat, for example, it is to his/her heavenly credit! And that heavenly reward, incidentally, is not doled out to the Jew! A Jew takes upon the "covenant" in order to fulfill it completely, no exceptions, and for no other glory than simply doing what a Jew should do. The Jew's reward for keeping Torah is simply the blessing of being prospered in the land of Israel (along with all those blessings that are spelled out in Deuteronomy). If a gentile choses to, he can convert and place him (or herself) under the Torah. If he does so, he is liable to keep the entire Torah after circumcision. If he falls, he falls hard, and discouraged he/she shall simply turn away, where as once he would simply have been blessed. This is what Paul is getting at. Better to remain a righteous gentile than become a lapsed Jew. This is what Yeshua is getting at, "Woe to you scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites, for you cross land and sea to find one convert and, finding one, you turn him into twice the son of hell that you are!" The yoke of Torah is simply too heavy on a gentile, especially if he has bad or even mediocre teachers.

Hold on, don't be offended, MJ's! The heavenly credit reserved for the gentiles is not to reward us gentiles over you guys! We gentiles don't have a "free break" from the Torah either! Our "God-fearing" status only gives us gentiles some leverage in order to be a part of the Kingdom, and to bring you honor...how does that verse go (in Zechariah I believe)? "In that day, ten gentile women will take hold of one Jew, etc."

Heavenly reward DOES come to the Jew, but for a totally different reason!!!

Yeshua gave his Jewish disciples a new doctrine, he made with them a new Brit, a Brit Hadashah. What Brit Hadashah is that? The Brit of Jer. 31:31-34, a Brit that haShem Himself will write upon their hearts instead of the Brit handed down on tablets of stone.

What is the content of the Brit haHadashah? John 1:17 says: "For the Torah came through Moses, 'Hesed v'emet' came through Yeshua haMashiaH." "Hesed" is usually translated "Grace" or "Lovingkindness", but what it actually means is "extreme loyalty". "Emet" is usually translated "truth" but in Hebrew this word actually has the connotation of "faithfulness" (such a meaning is lost in Greek, but do a lexical study on "emet", aleph-mem-tav, and you will see what I mean). "Grace" and "truth" in Hebrew are actually nearly synonimous, they mean together "extreme loyalty and faithfulness".

In the Rabbinic writings there is law that takes precedence over the laws of Torah, it is the mitzvah of Hesed, lit. the "commandment of Lovingkindness". The Rabbis searched for the "Works of Hesed v'emet" in the Tenakh in order to get a better handle on what that law might be. The words "to do Hesed v'emet" ("to do extreme loyalty and faithfulness") are found in several interesting passages of the Tenakh, but I can't get into them at this point. I will list these in my next post if anyone is interested.

The Rabbis came to one tremendous conclusion (actually a conclusion probably arrived at by Rabban Hillel one generation before Yeshua) that the command of "Hesed v'emet" was simply to imitate God, "to do the works of the Father". In order to become a "son of God", which is a higher calling than simply a "son of Abraham" in the flesh, one must do the "works of God", Who shows us "extreme loyalty and faithfulness" in all of His actions towards us, even to those of us who don't deserve God's kindness. Yeshua was teaching this new law when he said "Love your enemy...for God causes the rain to fall and sun shine on the wicked as well as the righteous." The Law of Hesed (or "Law of Faith" as Paul calls it) goes far, far beyond what the Torah expects of you! The Torah simply commands "love your neighbor as yourself", or "love your neighbor who is like you" (in Hebrew the latter meaning is more accurate--Yeshua expands the command to include non-Jews, incidentally. In Rabbinic-speak, he "built a fence around the Torah" in the parable of the Good Samaritan by interpreting the "neighbor" as "whoever treats you as a Jew should"). But Yeshua positted an even more drastic command by stating: "Love your enemy". Not even the Rabbis went as far Yeshua in this radical command (the Psalms of David, for one, advocate hatred towards our enemies). But Yeshua understood the heart of God, which has "rav Hesed", and so he taught us to have the same forbearance towards our enemies, just as God had forbearance and kindness on the Israelites in the wilderness, despite all of their faults.

After imploring his disciples to love one another and to "abide in me" (do the works of the Father), Yeshua tells them, "I no longer call you servants, for the slave does not know what the master is doing; but I have called you my friends, for all things that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you" (John 15:15). His disciples know the Father's business now, they have learned to do the works of the Father, the works of Hesed v'emet--this is what he had been teaching them for 3 and half years. He wrote in their hearts the Brit haHadashah. The heart, according to the Proverbs, was made up out of "shnei luHot" (two tablets), on which two sets of commandments are written:

One set of commandments that are written on one "luaH libekha", "tablet of the heart", is found in Prov 7.2-3:

Keep my commandments and live; And my Torah as the apple your eye.
Bind them upon your fingers; Write them on the tablet of your heart.

The commandments of "Torah" are to be written on one's heart, the Torah that was given through Moses (John 1.17a).

Another set of commandments are written on the second "tablet of the heart" in Prov 3.3:

Do not let Hesed v'emet (Lovingkindness and Faithfulness) leave you;
Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart.

The commandments of "Hesed v'emet" came through Yeshua haMashiaH (John 1.17b).:clap:

Barukh haShem!
 
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simchat_torah

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Koilias,

Thank you for the thought provoking response.

May I invoke your brain a bit here?

That covenant was not made with us at Sinai.


What if I said two things to you:

1) There were many nations represented at the foot of the mountain.
2) The decree at Sinai went out to: "Those of us here and to those not here with us"

How would you interpret the two points above?

If you want to toss in any Rabbinic commentary, feel free.

shalom,
Yafet
 
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koilias

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I agree with you in some respect. Yes, God gave the gentiles "over to their passions and Idolatry" (as Paul puts it in Rom 1) because they failed to honor Him and listen to His voice when it went out to all the world (gentiles included) when His voice thundered from Sinai and not a peep was heard from man, beast, or twittering bird. Even the ophanim in heaven stopped uttering "Holy, Holy, Holy" when God uttered "There is no other one beside me!"

Yes, my ancestors heard the Lord in Sinai.

But only the Jews accepted the Covenant.

We didn't agree...to our great loss.
 
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yod

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Role of the jewish believer;
47 "For so the Lord has commanded us,
' I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.'"



Role of the Gentile believer;
30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.



The "one new man"
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.



OK...next subject?
 
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KelsayDL

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I disagree with Kelsay that we as gentiles need to be "under the Torah". That covenant was not made with us at Sinai. We are not "under Torah" for our own good, it's haShem's grace to us, since we are weaker than our Jewish brethren in respect to the Jewish way of life

Hi Koilas,

I don't recall saying we need to be _under the law_

I believe it's a way of life Gods people are drawn to. I don't feel _under the law_ as though it is some great burden nor bondage, or else I would not be looking into it.

It is Gods words on how we should be living, and I believe it is meant for all of his people. Regardless of who was present when it was given.

And the scriptures that I hold to be God breathed are chock full of references to the stranger and his place upon joining himself to the God of Israel.

Isn't that what we are?


Isa 56:6 -
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

What covenant? The one given at Sinai?

Apparently the so called new covenant espoused by christianity does not include the Sabbath of God (any day is their sabbath). So I am led to believe this speaks of the stranger joining himself to the LORD to serve him, under the covenant given at sinai.

Because I have not yet seen a new covenant come fully into view as of yet.
 
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koilias

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KelsayDL said:
Hi Koilas,

I don't recall saying we need to be _under the law_

I believe it's a way of life Gods people are drawn to. I don't feel _under the law_ as though it is some great burden nor bondage, or else I would not be looking into it..
Kelsay, forgive me for reading too much into your words. You are right, you said no such thing (I interjected a Rabbinic idiom, "dwelling under Torah"--which Paul also uses--to reflect the meaning of "conversion").

KelsayDL said:
It is Gods words on how we should be living, and I believe it is meant for all of his people. Regardless of who was present when it was given.

And the scriptures that I hold to be God breathed are chock full of references to the stranger and his place upon joining himself to the God of Israel.

Isn't that what we are?


Isa 56:6 -
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

What covenant? The one given at Sinai?

Apparently the so called new covenant espoused by christianity does not include the Sabbath of God (any day is their sabbath). So I am led to believe this speaks of the stranger joining himself to the LORD to serve him, under the covenant given at sinai.

Because I have not yet seen a new covenant come fully into view as of yet.
We agree more than we disagree, here. I didn't say gentiles should reject Sinai, but merely "not convert" (be liable to 100% of it). I'm an Acts 15 purist. But I do believe we begin with the Noachide laws and work ourselves progressively onwards from there. We need a strong Messianic Rabbinic beit-din to figure out what Sinaitic laws apply to us, and which ones don't, and which ones need to be modified for our sakes. I submit to you that only a few of us will remain if the bar is raised to %100. As for me, I'd rather hold out for a reward for keeping Sinai, because it's beyond what's expected of me.

The New Covenant is the covenant of Hesed v'emet ("Grace"--extreme loyalty and faithfulness). Prov. 3.3, Jer. 31:31-4. Paul says we must be "under Grace", not JUST "under Torah"! It is the mitzvah of imitating God! (Gen. 24:27). It is a higher calling than observing Sinai. It is a covenant that is written on the "tablet of the heart" (ALONGSIDE Sinai for the Jew). Prov 3:3, 7:2-3. Because it is a covenant made with the ceremony of the heart, not with the ceremony of standing "under Torah" at Sinai.

It is a covenant undertaken by FORCEFULLY DECLARING (grasping, taking hold of) an extremely loyal and faithfull relationship with God, as Abraham had done. It is a covenant that both parties, God and ourselves, sign on to. It is a covenant of mutual love. For God Himself is the first person in the Bible to show Hesed v'emet! After finding Rivkah, says Abraham's servant: "Barukh HaShem Elohei adoni Abraham! Asher lo-azav Hasdo va'amito! (Gen 24:27).

It is a mutual covenant of a very intimate father-son relationship with God.

It is a covenant which sees no evil, raises no bar, and completely immerses us with God's RuaH haKodesh. It is a covenant withouth bonds or limits.

It is a covenant of loving those who despise us.

It is a covenant of feeding orphans and widows, accepting strangers, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, of visiting those who are in prison, of carrying a Roman's commanders load a second mile, of returning a pledge before nightfall, of defiling one's priestly purity to pick up a dying person by the side of the road..."Doing the deeds of the FATHER" because you love the Father and His creatures, who bear His image, so much!

It is a covenant of honoring for those who depart from us (Yeshua wept for Lazarus...EVEN THOUGH he knew he was going to resurrect him!)

It is a covenant of bringing praise to the bride and bridegroom and not to ourselves (three days after Yeshua takes on disciples, he goes to a wedding, has to stop teaching, performs a deed worthy of Moshe and yet he doesn't take the credit for the deed, but ingeniously transfers his "mitzvah" to the bridegroom.) It is a covenant which doesn't seek its own. It only knows giving, the emptying of one's self. Not the glorification of one's self. That is the true "Glory".

It is a covenant which makes the "first covenant", Sinai, doable!!!! This is what Paul is arguing. If you are "under Torah", you are under Torah by the seat of your pants--there is no love, only fear and oppression. But if you are "under Hesed" (in addition to "Torah") there is ONLY LOVE and Joy and Great DESIRE to keep Sinai, BECAUSE THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING THAT WILL STOP YOU FROM "TAKING HOLD OF THE KINGDOM"!!!! "HESED V'EMET" MAKES SINAI SPRING FROM YOUR INNERMOST HEART!

Kelsay, we are in total agreement...I just read Paul differently...

Blessed are those who seek the Kingdom. May we empty ourselves on this holy day.
 
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