Work For Faith Or Salvation?

[oworm]

Without the illuminating powerful enabling of Gods Spirit we are incapable of receiving Gods truth. Jesus categorally states that no one can come to him for salvation unless he is drawn by the Father. God takes the initiative in Salvation. Not individuals. Yes we have to exercise faith and believe but we are incapable of doing that by virtue of our spiritual death unless there is an spiritual awakening and conviction of sin.

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Can you see what Jesus is saying here? He is saying that the reason there are some who do not believe is because they have not be drawn to Him by the Father. That's why he says "This is why I told you" he actually gives a very clear explanation as to why there are those who do not believe because the implication is that those who do not believe cannot because they have not been drawn by the Father.

The spirit of the world will never convince us of our spiritual poverty before a Holy and Righteous God. If we are to understand our spiritual predicament we need a spiritual awakening in order to undestand

"We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us."​

This is what marks Christianity out from all other religions. In all others religions (Including aberrations of Christianity,man is reaching up to God. In Christianity God takes the initiative by reaching down to man.
We see that ultimately in the incarnation as the second person of the trinity humbles himself to take our flesh to come and fulfill the laws demands and represent us before a just and Holy God.

When you became a Christian were you not drawn to Christ. Was there not a dawning desire to know him? Where do you think that came from?




​

 

[gmm4j]

Without the illuminating powerful enabling of Gods Spirit we are incapable of receiving Gods truth. Jesus categorally states that no one can come to him for salvation unless he is drawn by the Father. God takes the initiative in Salvation. Not individuals. Yes we have to exercise faith and believe but we are incapable of doing that by virtue of our spiritual death unless there is an spiritual awakening and conviction of sin.

Everything sounds good until you get to "incapable". Man, in fact, is capable of believing the gospel, otherwise, all the calls to belief are disingenuous.

 

[gmm4j]

Can you see what Jesus is saying here? He is saying that the reason there are some who do not believe is because they have not be drawn to Him by the Father. That's why he says "This is why I told you" he actually gives a very clear explanation as to why there are those who do not believe because the implication is that those who do not believe cannot because they have not been drawn by the Father.

The spirit of the world will never convince us of our spiritual poverty before a Holy and Righteous God. If we are to understand our spiritual predicament we need a spiritual awakening in order to understand

The text doesn't say that they do not believe because they have not been drawn by the Father, it says, they do not come to Jesus because it had not been granted by the Father. THE FATHER GRANTS ACCESS TO THE SON (GIVES TO THE SON) THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH!!! Those who have faith come to the Son. Those who do not believe are not given to the Son.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life

 

[ronathanedwards]

Yet Jesus said "You do not believe BECAUSE you are not my sheep".

they do not come to Jesus because it had not been granted by the Father. THE FATHER GRANTS ACCESS TO THE SON (GIVES TO THE SON) THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH!!!

First you say the do not come BECAUSE it has not been granted, THEN you turn it around and say The father grants BECAUSE they believe. That is a contradiction!
They come BECAUSE it was granted, NOT "because they came, therefore, He granted them!

Concerning Eph. 2:8 ...

Salvation ALONE is NOT the gift. Paul used a special rule of grammar that is used to incorporate the WHOLE CLAUSE.

By GRACE (feminine) Saved (masculine) faith (feminine) ... and THIS (NEUTER demonstrative pronoun)

Grace- Saved- Faith CAN NOT be singled out. The grammar doesn't allow it. They are ALL the gift. Which means your "faith" is a GIFT.

"FROM HIM and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS"

 

[gmm4j]

Yet Jesus said "You do not believe BECAUSE you are not my sheep".

First you say the do not come BECAUSE it has not been granted, THEN you turn it around and say The father grants BECAUSE they believe. That is a contradiction!

It is not a contradiction. I believe you live in Minnesota. I am not going to come to you. Two different things.

Concerning Eph. 2:8 ...

Salvation ALONE is NOT the gift. Paul used a special rule of grammar that is used to incorporate the WHOLE CLAUSE.

By GRACE (feminine) Saved (masculine) faith (feminine) ... and THIS (NEUTER demonstrative pronoun)

Grace- Saved- Faith CAN NOT be singled out. The grammar doesn't allow it. They are ALL the gift. Which means your "faith" is a GIFT.

"FROM HIM and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS"

Is Faith a Gift from God?

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9, emp. added).
​

For centuries, Bible commentators have differed on the precise reference of the pronoun “that” in Ephesians 2:8. Does “that” (touto) refer to faith, as many have stated (e.g., Augustine, Chrysostom, Westcott, Lenski, etc.), or, does “that” refer to salvation from sin? Is faith “the gift of God,” or is this gift salvation by grace through faith?
Admittedly, from a cursory reading of Ephesians 2:8, it may appear that the relative pronoun that has faith as its grammatical antecedent. Those who believe that faith is a gift (i.e., miraculous imposition) from God, often point out that in this verse “faith” is the nearest antecedent of “that” (“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God&#8221. However, when one examines Ephesians 2:8 in the language in which it was written originally (Greek), he finds that the pronoun that (touto) is neuter in gender, while the word faith (pistis) is feminine. Since the general rule in Greek grammar is for the gender and number of a relative pronoun to be the same as its antecedent (Mounce, 1993, p. 111), then some extenuating linguistic circumstance, special idiomatic use, or other mitigating factor would need to be demonstrated to justify linking “that” to “faith.” If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is.

When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that&#8221 is referring (1993, p. 111). The overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians is man’s salvation found in Christ.

• “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace” (1:7).
• The heavenly “inheritance” is found in Christ (1:11).
• After believing in the good news of salvation through Christ, the Ephesians were “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (1:13).
• Sinners are made “alive with Christ” and saved “by grace” (2:5).
• Sinners are brought near to God “by the blood of Christ” (2:13).
• Paul became a servant of Christ “according to the gift of the grace of God…by the effective working of His power” (3:7).

Not only is the theme of salvation the overall context of the first three chapters of Ephesians, but the immediate context of Ephesians 2:8-9 is of salvation, not of faith. These two verses thoroughly document how a person is saved, not how a person believes.

• Salvation is by grace.
• Salvation is through faith.
• Salvation is not of yourselves.
• Salvation is the gift of God.
• Salvation is not of works.

Paul was not giving an exposition on faith in his letter to the Ephesians. Salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Faith is not a direct gift from God given to some but not others. Rather, as Paul wrote to the church at Rome, “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Faith in Christ as the Son of God is only found in those who have first heard the Word of God, and then believed (cf. John 20:31).
REFERENCES

Mounce, William D. (1993), Basics of Biblical Greek (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan).


Copyright © 2003 Apologetics Press, Inc. All rights reserved.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/APCo...1&article=1246

 

[oworm]

The text doesn't say that they do not believe because they have not been drawn by the Father, it says, they do not come to Jesus because it had not been granted by the Father. THE FATHER GRANTS ACCESS TO THE SON (GIVES TO THE SON) THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH!!! Those who have faith come to the Son. Those who do not believe are not given to the Son.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life

The text does not say that the Father grants access to the son by virtue of the exercise of faith. Those who look to the Son have been drawn by the Father who takes the initiative. It starts with God the Father's initiating grace and not by the faith of the individual

 

[gmm4j]

Those who look to the Son have been drawn by the Father who takes the initiative. It starts with God the Father's initiating grace and not by the faith of the individual

I agree.

 

[ronathanedwards]

When no clear antecedent is found within a text, Greek scholar William Mounce wisely recommends that the Bible student study the context of the passage in question in order to help determine to what a relative pronoun (like “that&#8221 is referring (1993, p. 111).

First of all, I'm VERY sorry that you blindly follow a man solely because he supports your presupposition. It doesn't add any substance, but only gives more evidence to the ignorance of leadership in the Church and their followers (blind leading the blind)

Secondly, if you would go to the source instead of just copy and pasting a man's OPINION of another man's work, you would find out that he takes Mounce out of context. I have Mounce's book, I have read it MANY times, been tested on it, and practically know it by heart. Bill is stating that if an antecedent is not CLEAR (where the SUBJECTS are of the same GENDER in the same CLAUSE!!! You must look at the IMMEDIATE CONTEXT!!! NOT CHAPTERS!!! Eric Lyons is a fraud, and shame on him for misrepresenting Mounce that way, it's disgusting scholarship at best.

If such reasonable justification cannot be made, then one is compelled to continue studying the passage in order to know assuredly what “that” gift of God is

The problem is, there is a VERY reasonable and EASILY Justifiable and substantiated argument that CAN be made, that is, the IMMEDIATE context where there are two different genders being the antecedent and the pronoun is neuter, the pronoun is referring to ALL the subjects of the clause !!! I'm sorry you have been duped. Instead of believing in man's opinion of ANOTHER man, why not just do your due diligence and go to the actual source? It will keep you from error and every wind of doctrine.

It is not a contradiction. I believe you live in Minnesota. I am not going to come to you. Two different things.

You mix definitions. Believing is the same as "coming". All that the father GIVES to the some WILL COME to Him. NO man CAN COME UNLESS the father draws ""HIM"" and I will raise ""HIM"" up on the last day.

Your analogy is incorrect because there is no CAUSAL reference, therefore your analogy is wrong. Why do think I capitalized "BECAUSE". You can NOT make a reference without a causal implement to the clause. They come BECAUSE He draws. ALL that are drawn WILL COME... do all come? NO... Why BECAUSE all are not drawn.