WooHoo Submission

[Psalm63]

You gentlemen have a great deal of power in your marriage. YOU can cut these chains and tell your wife that she should put wife submission out of her head and forget about it. From now on your marriage will be a partnership of equals and you will NEVER use guilt, God, or the Bible to insist on your own way.

Willard Harley of marriagebuilders has some good material on the genuine complementarity of men and women-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Why are the differences between a man and a woman so valuable in marriage? [/FONT]and on how to run a marriage of equal partners-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Policy of Joint Agreement[/FONT].

 

[dallasapple]

I don't think so, Chaz, I just mentioned that at two of the churches I went to, Debi Pearl's book Created to be his Help Meet was used as part of the women's Bible study. It was then mentioned that the Pearls also have a book entitled To Train up a Child which has led to abuse in some instances. I will say that in the Created book, Mrs. Pearl does advocate allowing your husband to abuse your children and continuing to be all submissive in the hopes that your submission would bring him around. I'm rolling my eyes even now as I type this. Anyway, I'm just saying that this was a pretty natural progression of the conversation from the topic at hand.

It IS a natural progression ..being that the wife is many times the MOTHER...many of the issues or disagreements where the question of 'submission would come into play is regarding parenting.Its burying your head in the sand to say 'submitting in EVERYTHING" wouldnt include raising children together and the decisions made surrounding that.As a matter of fact thats a HUGE part of being married IF you have children and most do.

Dallas

 

[dallasapple]

Plus, re. the bolded: since when is there a Biblical allowance for if the h is NOT truly seeking and following God's will? Wives are still expected to "submit" to an unbelieving h, are they not? Faith and C2W talk about how happy they are to submit but they are fortunate to have h's who treat them well and who they believe are putting the Lord first. If not...then what? It's not an extreme situation; it's very common, and to ignore the obvious problems that will then arise if a wife IS supposed to submit to her h simply because he is her h is irresponsible. PERHAPS it doesn't work so often because it's legalistic and misguided...misinterpreted.

I agree...especially with the part about it not being EXTREME...it is common.When I married at 20 my husband was 22..we both had our storng and weak points..but he was NO less SELFISH immature ..and irresponsible and NON WISE than me in many ways...Litterally having him the "authority" over me and me submitting would have ONLY accomplished him getting HIS way in every selfish desire..SURE when it happened to go in 'my favor" I suppose you could then say what a GREAT unselfish serving the Lord husband he was..NO..it would have been by coincidence..It was already a game of control and manipulation to get his way..

It is NOT uncommon for MEN as it is WOMEN to especially when they are young and think they already KNOW everything to be selfish...flying by the seat of their pants ..fickle..unsure ..no WISDOM behind them any more than thier spouse with new experiences..period and that is not 'rare"..the man has no more experience nor WISDOM than she does just based on GENDER.

Hopefully you mature TOGETHER...

Dallas

 

[chaz345]

Chaz, I have seen a huge cross-section of opinions being given. I don't see you saying to those who are pro-submission that "I don't see the point in ONLY discussing that", so why is the reverse true? I think that every angle should be discussed, because that is the only *honest* way to have a discussion.

The topic IS submission tough. Not abuse, not child murder not the worst possible things that can happen because of a twisted version of submission is believed in.

Like I said before, it's the same thing that happens when a few other topics come up too. It IS a focus on the extreme that makes discussion of what actually happens most of the time impossible. If submission is so wrong, why can't it be objected to without going to the more extreme possible way in which is can go wrong?

 

[chaz345]

The idea which Robertson McQuilken advocated was that the EXERCISE of the "final decision making authority" should be "RARE"; exceedingly RARE, but nevertheless he supported it and he taught it.

Do you or do you not support the idea that God's Word endows HUSBANDS with final decision making authority in a marriage?

I agree with McQuilken completely and totally. Here's the thing though. If i saw or knew of a situation where a couple believed as he and his wife did, and the decision making authority was being used often, I'd definitely call him on it. I wouldn't sit there and think "hey he's got a womderfully submissive wife" I'd say to him "hey do you really think this is what God meant."

 

[McScribe]

I think Cons misunderstands my position about mutual reassurance.

To use a comparative analogy, imagine hat we were, say, talking about the rights of States versus the United States as a whole, and someone brought up what they felt was the right of the Confederacy to split. It should not come as a surprise for someone to bring up the issue of slavery. Saying, "Surely you don't believe in slavery!" would under the circumstances be a fair question. What I was saying was this: when the parties asked the question reply "Of course not" then we should accept a little discussion of it and then move on. This is simply a reassurance of goodwill.

In the same way, some of these discussions that go down lots of bunny trails or get too heated could be kept on track and more civil if people on both sides didn't feel outraged by requests for such reassurance. For example I think some of the women here simply want to know that we are not advocating the man dominating the woman. If we said that simply and went on to explain how we see it, then we might have a good discussion.

At the same time, I would also like reassurance from the women who have a feminist position that they genuinely believe in equality and believe both spouses are equally capable of doing wrong and equally capable of being responsible for marital improvement.

To ask for these reassurances is simply a necessary reminder of integrity and good faith in a conversation.

 

[Athene]

My response to that questions (not on behalf of McScribe!) is a "No".

From the third century we can see developments in the church that persisted for centuries. There were three major influences that happened over time:
a) Pressure, eventually successful, to have Rome replace Jerusalem, as the ecclesiastical centre of the church;
b) The development of a male, and, a bit later, a celibate professional leadership and structure;
c) With b) a strong patriarchal hold took over the church.

All these were historical developments, which many now see as unwarranted and not truly biblical.

For many centuries a church dominated society accepted a divine order - God, church, king - as the way our world was to operate. Some aspects of that teaching are very much alive and advocated within some Protestant churches. I am thankful for the scholarly re-evaluations that have taken place form men and women committed to Jesus Christ and the integrity of the Scriptures well understood.

John
NZ

Took over? You mean it wasn't always there?

 

[Athene]

ETA - I'm dyed in the wool egalitarian, despite what it says in the Bible Just as we are all very likely anti-slavery, despite what it says in the Bible.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Two things on this. One, as has been said by C2W and I thikg Faith Prevails, it's not against their will. And second, as professing believers, shouldn't both the wife and husband be seeking and following God's will and not their own? If the husband is truly seeking and following God's will, then there is no problem right? If the wife is truly seeking God's will then it will align with what the husband says should be done if he is doing likewise. But then again, from your worldview that even the best man is inherently more likely to ignore God's will and follow his own than the wife is, your stance on this makes perfect sense.

Yep, exactly. Just this afternoon, DH and I had a conversation about something. We disagreed about the plan of action to take and my exact words to him were, "Well, the decision is up to you. You know my thoughts on the matter." End of conversation.

Then, I gave the situation to God in prayer and asked Him to speak to my husband and help him make the right decison according to His will since we were obviously conflicted about what to do.

 

[JaneFW]

The topic IS submission tough. Not abuse, not child murder not the worst possible things that can happen because of a twisted version of submission is believed in.

Like I said before, it's the same thing that happens when a few other topics come up too. It IS a focus on the extreme that makes discussion of what actually happens most of the time impossible. If submission is so wrong, why can't it be objected to without going to the more extreme possible way in which is can go wrong?

It just goes round and round ...

There are extremes - there is the extreme that says that submission/headship can turn into abuse. There is another extreme, which turned up on the other thread - that anyone not engaging in submission/headship is sinful, and the husband is a failure. Then in the middle seems to be everyone else that I see posting on this forum, but in all honesty, the way that these couple say that submission works out looks no different whatsoever to the way that my marriage works out. You agree that your wife is more knowledgeable in some areas than you are, right? You are more knowledgeable in others. You said you had never had cause to use your "headship" - so in fact, your marriage is identical to mine (in that respect) because my h always has the option to say that we have to do it his way, but he doesn't, and so do you, but you don't. You/he both respect your wife's abilities, and she/I respect/s yours/his. Therefore, there is no difference between these marriages and a marriage where the couple say openly that there is no submission, other than you say it is a submissive marriage, and I say that mine is not.

(I know there are other differences, I'm just talking about - in this respect.)

 

[Chaplain David]

In the last several posts particularly I've noticed posters directly addressing the OP/subject rather than other posters. That's exactly how to make progress in, learn from, and express one's self in ways that are both cathartic and helpful. Excellent!

 

[Johnnz]

Took over? You mean it wasn't always there?

That's right. Those of us who hold to the NT church seeing the message of Jesus (the Kingdom of God) as a radical reversal of the existing social norms of fallen societies see a male dominated hierarchical structure as unbiblical. My own posts on this thread are an attempt to outline what can be seen as an accurate NT position. Thus, I don't take the stance of some others who just 'brush aside' the scriptures they don't agree with. Paul was just as opposed to slavery too, contrary to those who chide him on that topic as well as his attitudes towards women. Paul was a great liberator - of women, from social class, from power structures, from racial domination, from religious rule keeping. For Paul. Jesus changed everything.

John
NZ

 

[Philothei]

I will be witty here...

From my Big Fat Greek Wedding"

" Man might be the head ....but woman is the neck...." hehehe....

All in all I think that like Faithprevails said we voice out we discuss we do not agree ...eh...we give it to prayer. I think though most of the times we as women have the responsibility to be careful how to advice too. We cannot sit back and say "okie just decid hun"... We need to help them with the decision making and if we know that something is not thought out on our spouses part through prayer and some thought we have to insist on going through that route

I remember in my seminary years we would take time to pray together...We need to go back to it for sure instead of individually praying. That is my whole harmony thing... They say families who pray together stay together

My 0.2 cents

 

[FaithPrevails]

I will be witty here...

From my Big Fat Greek Wedding"

" Man might be the head ....but woman is the neck...." hehehe....

All in all I think that like Faithprevails said we voice out we discuss we do not agree ...eh...we give it to prayer. I think though most of the times we as women have the responsibility to be careful how to advice too. We cannot sit back and say "okie just decid hun"... We need to help them with the decision making and if we know that something is not thought out on our spouses part through prayer and some thought we have to insist on going through that route

I remember in my seminary years we would take time to pray together...We need to go back to it for sure instead of individually praying. That is my whole harmony thing... They say families who pray together stay together

My 0.2 cents

Again, wonderful wisdom imparted here. Slight variation from my POV, but the bolded part stands out. In the other thread, one of my first posts talks about disobedience when we know our husband has not made a God-led decision.

IMO, that means that we do not have to agree to/execute a decision that is made if we do not believe the plan of action is God-led. Asking to re-address and take it to prayer again is a great way of "disobeying", IMO.

 

[Philothei]

Again, wonderful wisdom imparted here. Slight variation from my POV, but the bolded part stands out. In the other thread, one of my first posts talks about disobedience when we know our husband has not made a God-led decision.

IMO, that means that we do not have to agree to/execute a decision that is made if we do not believe the plan of action is God-led. Asking to re-address and take it to prayer again is a great way of "disobeying", IMO.

So that I am clear here are you saying that we should not agree with our husbands if we do not believe that the plan of action is not God-led? Not sure what you mean by "disobeying" here... Do you mean we are actually on the wrong or the right to do so?

Thanks for the clarification Faith

This topic is of great interest to me as God had lead us to a variety of places and because my husband is in the ministry this is a very heavy load to carry. Also in the EO church the priests are considered to be in a dual ministry with their spouse. Not that the EO priests do not make the decision actually the Church does. In cases of moving to different parishes it is the priest who makes the decision but the Church prefers the spouse to agree on the assigment also. Thanks for your time

 

[FaithPrevails]

I mean that I will not blindly follow my husband's decision/leadership if I feel that he made a decision that was not God-led. I will challenge his decision and ask him to take it again to God in prayer.

This is tricky, though, b/c I have to make sure that I really believe it's not God-led - and do not challenge him just b/c I don't agree with the decision.

I hope that makes more sense as to what I meant by disobedience.

 

[Philothei]

I mean that I will not blindly follow my husband's decision/leadership if I feel that he made a decision that was not God-led. I will challenge his decision and ask him to take it again to God in prayer.

This is tricky, though, b/c I have to make sure that I really believe it's not God-led - and do not challenge him just b/c I don't agree with the decision.

I hope that makes more sense as to what I meant by disobedience.

My thoughts exactly and the ticky part also It is hard sometimes to discern what it is...and prayer is indeed the way to go about it....Guh...I should always listen to my Bishop that is what he always teaches us

Thanks Faith

 

[JaneFW]

I agree with McQuilken completely and totally. Here's the thing though. If i saw or knew of a situation where a couple believed as he and his wife did, and the decision making authority was being used often, I'd definitely call him on it. I wouldn't sit there and think "hey he's got a womderfully submissive wife" I'd say to him "hey do you really think this is what God meant."

But you see there is such a lot of picking and choosing going on: I will obey my husband unless ... until .. and then I have every right to .. It's either submission or it's not. The alternative is what my h and I do and have always done - other than the brief period when I gave to him submission, and he asked me to stop - in that we work as a team, both of us pulling together (or pushing), equal before each other and equal before God. I know that's not wrong, and no-one is going to persuade me otherwise. (Not that you were trying to.)

 

[JaneFW]

You gentlemen have a great deal of power in your marriage. YOU can cut these chains and tell your wife that she should put wife submission out of her head and forget about it. From now on your marriage will be a partnership of equals and you will NEVER use guilt, God, or the Bible to insist on your own way.

Willard Harley of marriagebuilders has some good material on the genuine complementarity of men and women-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Why are the differences between a man and a woman so valuable in marriage? [/FONT]and on how to run a marriage of equal partners-[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]The Policy of Joint Agreement[/FONT].

 

[Everlasting33]

The words "submit" and "obey" just are not popular with most women in 2011. Children are told to obey their parents. Citizens are told to obey the law. For women to "obey" husbands seem patriarchal and oppressive.

Mutual submission seems more logical to me.