LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

spockrates · Jun 5, 2017

NYCGuy said:
Again, I'm asking where "the LDS church" claims that the oneness is one of "unity" (I'm being very specific here).

Since the Father and Son are distinct, how can they be one other than through a unity of purpose?

I'm thinking Catholics maybe don't disagree the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are unified. They disagree that a unity of purpose is all that unifies them.

EDIT: Or are you asking for a specific doctrinal statement of the LDS church?

Ironhold · Jun 5, 2017

NYCGuy said:
Still waiting to see where the LDS church claims that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are "one through unity".

I know that we've brought up John 17 before.

The Intercessory Prayer has Jesus praying that his followers will know the same sense of oneness that he has with the Father.

I've yet to see a mainline Christian who could explain that away in the light of three-in-one without trying to declare the passage metaphorical.

spockrates · Jun 5, 2017

Ironhold said:
I know that we've brought up John 17 before.

The Intercessory Prayer has Jesus praying that his followers will know the same sense of oneness that he has with the Father.

I've yet to see a mainline Christian who could explain that away in the light of three-in-one without trying to declare the passage metaphorical.

I agree, Ironhold that the passage is speaking of being one in a relational way, rather than a metaphysical way. So it isn't a strong proof text for the Trinity.

But I'm sure you agree it isn't a proof text for denying the trinitarian doctrine, either. For the persons of the trinitarian God are indeed believed to be unified in a relational way.

What a Trinity protagonist does lack is a different biblical text to support the idea that God is one substance (or one being) that is in three persons. For it seems to me this tenant of the doctrine is based in an inference made from the several biblical texts, rather than a direct idea of any one biblical text.

NYCGuy · Jun 5, 2017

Ironhold said:
I know that we've brought up John 17 before.

The Intercessory Prayer has Jesus praying that his followers will know the same sense of oneness that he has with the Father.

I've yet to see a mainline Christian who could explain that away in the light of three-in-one without trying to declare the passage metaphorical.

This does not address the specific question that has been asked.

Ironhold · Jun 5, 2017

NYCGuy said:
This does not address the specific question that has been asked.

Yes; it does.

Peter1000 · Jun 5, 2017

spockrates said:
...

Yes, a kind of spiritual rule of three persons--God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. Would you say this "government" is a:

person made up of three persons, or

place made up of three persons, or

thing made up of three persons?

Which best defines a "government"?

Neither. Government of God or the Godhead is made up of 3 separate and distinct Persons, so united in their effort that it is as if They are 1 God.

It is not a kind of spiritual rule of 3 Persons, it is an exact rule of 3 Persons, separate and distinct that are so unified in Their purpose that it is as if They are 1 God.

NYCGuy · Jun 5, 2017

Ironhold said:
Yes; it does.

Did you cite evidence of where "the LDS church" teaches that the oneness is one of "unity"? No you did not, therefore no, it does not.

spockrates · Jun 5, 2017

Peter1000 said:
Neither. Government of God or the Godhead is made up of 3 separate and distinct Persons, so united in their effort that it is as if They are 1 God.

It is not a kind of spiritual rule of 3 Persons, it is an exact rule of 3 Persons, separate and distinct that are so unified in Their purpose that it is as if They are 1 God.

I stand corrected. An exact rule. My thought is such a rule is a thing, like the government of nation is a thing. But perhaps I'm mistaken about this, too?

Ironhold · Jun 5, 2017

NYCGuy said:
Did you cite evidence of where "the LDS church" teaches that the oneness is one of "unity"? No you did not, therefore no, it does not.

Godhead

Rescued One · Jun 9, 2017

NYCGuy said:
Where does the LDS church teach that they are "one through unity"?

Members of the Godhead Are Perfectly United
They are distinct beings, but they are one in purpose and effort. They are united as one in bringing to pass the grand, divine plan for the salvation and exaltation of the children of God.
The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - Liahona Mar. 1998 - liahona

Although the members of the Godhead are distinct beings with distinct roles, they are one in purpose and doctrine. They are perfectly united in bringing to pass Heavenly Father's divine plan of salvation.
Godhead

Rescued One · Jun 9, 2017

spockrates said:
So I went to the site and did a search for the Book of Mormon. Found lots of information about it, but no online version of it that I may read or search or both.

Book of Mormon | LDS.org

Very enlightening as to their beliefs:
The Doctrine and Covenants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

The Pearl of Great Price

Rescued One · Jun 9, 2017

spockrates said:
Understood. Thanks. So I find it fascinating that Catholics and Latter Day Saints both believe God to be a what. The difference being this:

Whereas Catholics believe God is a what in three who's, LDS believe God is three who's in a what.

As I've explained, they believe the three persons are separate gods united in purpose.

Rescued One · Jun 9, 2017

spockrates said:
Walking my dog. Will talk later.

LOL. Must go --- my Rottweiler needs his teeth sharpened.

spockrates · Jun 10, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
As I've explained, they believe the three persons are separate gods united in purpose.

Is a purpose a person, place or thing? If a thing, then doesn't that mean the Godhead is a what, instead of a who?

spockrates · Jun 10, 2017

Phoebe Ann said:
LOL. Must go --- my Rottweiler needs his teeth sharpened.

Don't think I could abide by the drool! I prefer my labradoodle.

Rescued One · Jun 10, 2017

spockrates said:
Is a purpose a person, place or thing? If a thing, then doesn't that mean the Godhead is a what, instead of a who?

Yes, but that shouldn't upset Mormons. The First Presidency is a what (governing body)composed of the President(prophet) and his two counsellors.

2.
Each member of the Godhead is physically separate and distinct from the others (see D&C 130:22; Matthew 3:16–17; Acts 7:55–56).
3.
The members of the Godhead are united in Their attributes, power, and purpose (see John 17:20–21; D&C 20:28; 35:2; 2 Nephi 31:21; 3 Nephi 11:27).
4.
The Father is the supreme member of the Godhead (see John 14:26, 28, 31; 2 Nephi 31:7, 12;3 Nephi 28:11).

Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual Chapter 3: God the Eternal Father

The First Presidency (also called the Quorum of the Presidency of the Church[1] or simply the Presidency)[2] is the presiding or governing body of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). It is composed of the President of the Church and his counselors. The First Presidency currently consists of Thomas S. Monson and his two counselors, Henry B. Eyring and Dieter F. Uchtdorf.
First Presidency (LDS Church) - Wikipedia

The Father presides over the Godhead and the Prophet presides over the First Presidency.

Rescued One · Jun 10, 2017

spockrates said:
Don't think I could abide by the drool! I prefer my labradoodle.

LOL. I love my neighbor's wheaten terrier. I don't have a dog --- I was just being silly.

Karl.C · Jun 15, 2017

spockrates said:
...

Therefore,

A. The one God is a being that is in three persons.

Or should we say the one God that is in three persons is neither a substance nor a being?

You are almost there. The correct formula in modern formal English is...

A. The one God which we experience is three persons who are one in being = one in subsistence & persistence = substantiality not materiality = not a composite but a unity of nous (not merely unity of purpose but incorporates the interpersonal relationship of the three with us and each other. Experiential rather than experimental).

God is not "in" three persons. That introduces from Plato what is known as the 4th man which inhabits each of the three persons. Which is obviously a thought in opposition to the Trinity dogma.

Dustoff · Jun 18, 2017

Actually "person" in modern usage isn't a very good word. "Personality" is much more useful. One Essence with 3 separate personalities.

Karl.C · Jun 18, 2017

Dustoff said:
Actually "person" in modern usage isn't a very good word. "Personality" is much more useful. One Essence with 3 separate personalities.

I prefer not to use the word "personality" in theological discussion as "personalities" can be imitated and counterfeited (eg the Jewish view of theophanies = same personality different entities).

The Greek root of the term is prosopa (Latin persona). Both the Greek & Latin terms basically mean "face" and refer (depending on context) to "the actor's mask" or "the actors' mask" (ie: all individuals are capable of wearing multiple masks).

Plus you get the confusion of the modern Sabellianists (eg: Oneness Pentecostals) and the explanation of God having MPD. In contrast, Trinitarians adhere to scripture (eg: John 12:45; 14:7,9) and therefore perceive three individuals with one personality.

As to the idea "personality", I hold to the psychological model of individual & group dynamics = my personality changes according to with whom I am interacting.

I find it easier in theological discussion to use the Greek terms used by the Church fathers: prosopa (face=personality), hypostasis (the concrete reality of the individual=self identification), ousia ((the concrete reality of a group=group identity) & physes (the observable quality of something which identifies membership of a group/s=what is natural to a thing).

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