Women's Ordination
- Thread starter Simon_Templar
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John1and1
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This isnt ugliness at all. A pointed quesiton isnt intended to be ugly, but rather cutting to the chase to eliminate the conjecture. I really am not asking for links to articles telling why we shouldnt believe what is written... I ask once more though, what exactly IS written concerning a female teaching and having authority over men?
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Macrina
Macrinator
If you had read my post thoroughly, you would see that the link was not to an article, but rather to an answer I had written in my blog -- and that it was not about why you "shouldn't believe what is written," but rather about instances where scripture affirms the gifts of women for pastoral ministry.
With the frequency of this issue coming up, I started typing out my answers to the most common questions. I haven't gotten very far yet (too many other things demanding my attention), but I did write an extensive post on the female leaders of Romans 16 -- Phoebe, Prisca, and Junia. I grant that it is an incomplete answer, as I have not yet assembled all the other supporting examples, but to a careful reader these three examples should provide food for thought. If you don't want to click a link to my answer, that's ok -- but don't accuse me of trying to dodge the question.
Please realize that I'm doing my best to respond kindly to an issue about which I am very passionate. Also please realize that I am attempting to figure out a way to answer everyone's questions every time they ask them, but I have not yet achieved that. If you work with me a little, we might be able to have a real discussion.
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John1and1
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Allow me to clarify a point.
When i ask a pointed question, this is not an insult. This is cutting to the chase so that we see what we are actually dealing with concerning the issue at hand, and the info we have in scripture regarding it.
My pwesonal opinion is that you find an order that God established as personally offensive, therefore you kick against the goads in rebellion to it... again no offence, we have all likely been guilty of this from time to time. I have learned to try not to in my later years.
let me ask you this
God created order yes or no?
God placed the husband over the wife, yes or no? If yes, does this offend you?
God established Aaron and the sons of Aaron as priests and NOT the daughters of Aaron, yes or no?
God established the male levites as priests, and not the daughters, yes or no?
The ONLY scripture we have regarding a woman as teaching a man or exercizing authority over him forbids it, and there is no other scripture to found a rebuttal against it. Your disagreement seems to be more based on offence of the gospel instead of what is actually stated. No offence just an observation
So, please as well as addressing the questions, post EVERY scripture you can regarding a female pastor or teacher, and lets see what we have to work with.
When i ask a pointed question, this is not an insult. This is cutting to the chase so that we see what we are actually dealing with concerning the issue at hand, and the info we have in scripture regarding it.
My pwesonal opinion is that you find an order that God established as personally offensive, therefore you kick against the goads in rebellion to it... again no offence, we have all likely been guilty of this from time to time. I have learned to try not to in my later years.
let me ask you this
God created order yes or no?
God placed the husband over the wife, yes or no? If yes, does this offend you?
God established Aaron and the sons of Aaron as priests and NOT the daughters of Aaron, yes or no?
God established the male levites as priests, and not the daughters, yes or no?
The ONLY scripture we have regarding a woman as teaching a man or exercizing authority over him forbids it, and there is no other scripture to found a rebuttal against it. Your disagreement seems to be more based on offence of the gospel instead of what is actually stated. No offence just an observation
So, please as well as addressing the questions, post EVERY scripture you can regarding a female pastor or teacher, and lets see what we have to work with.
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Macrina
Macrinator
I have no problem with cutting to the chase. I have a problem with condescension from someone who is disregarding what I've said.
That's quite a personal opinion, and saying "no offense" doesn't make it non-offensive. But think what you like -- the Lord is my judge, not you.
Although you are being rude, I will answer your questions.
Yes.
No, not before the Curse.
Yes.
Yes.
No, not true. I've pointed you to examples which you have ignored. And again, saying "no offense" doesn't prevent something from being offensive.
You haven't bothered to look at the three I've already given you, why give you more?
*At this point, Macrina gets off the carousel so the other children can have a chance to go around.*
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J
John1and1
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I am not disregarding what you say. I am pointing out you have no scriptural basis to break the tradition and teaching held for over 3500 years
Yes He is, and He promises to judge us when we esteem and handle His word lightly does He not?
So if God establishes an order, even within the church, why is it you take offence at the order established within the church?
So what does this mean? The point stands that in God's present order of things the man is over the woman, the husband is over the wife, and men are over the church.
You are out to prove this wrong, and yet fail to provide scripture, only saying 'i already did'. You may do this if you wish but i will still press for your scripture
If God established the priesthood with Asron and his sons, the male levites, excluding women from the priesthood, why do you imagine He would overturn this? Do you imagine that Jesus created a new religion or do you not understand that the church is a sect of Judaism?
You offer nothing to show a woman was a pastor... At all, so how can you say i did not acknowledge 3 you posted when you posted no such thing?
Again, please post in your next post EVERY scripture in the bible pertaining to a woman teaching or exercizing power over men in the church.
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John1and1
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Explain the red bold please
1 Timothy 2
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Timothy 2
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
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John1and1
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No one chased her away. We asked for scripture to counter scripture given. There is nothing wrong with asking that one provide scripture declaring their stance, and nothing wrong for defending what is written unbiasly and in a nonhateful but straightforward mannerOK, lads, you can stop now, you've chased her away.
I hope that makes you feel good.
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John1and1
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This almost looks like an implication that we cannot question others who challenge scriptural teaching and tradition.
We are to defend the faith. No one insulted or called names. We DO however ask for her to post scripture declaring her point of view. The fact is there is nothing she can post which shows a female pastor, only that this is reserved as a position for the male. Once she sees this is true her point of view may change
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Albion
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Conservative Christians Forum
Conservative Christianity is defined by its allegiance to the Holy Scriptures and the traditional beliefs and teachings of the Christian Church on issues of theology and morality.
.........................................................................................................................
That's OUR Wiki folks, this forum's statement, or at least the first paragraph in it. Notice that there is a definition of a Conservative Christian and it doesn't say that either word means whatever anyone wants to make out of it.
So, it's simple. Can those who do not subscribe to it be here? Sure. Should they engage in proving in post after post that this definition or its values are wrong? NO.
Otherwise, you will get exactly what one of our people who recently wrote that she'd be leaving described--that it should not be necessary on a Conservative forum TO HAVE TO DEFEND CONSERVATIVE VIEWS against attacks.
I think that line said more than I'd tried to say in a half-dozen posts.
So what do you all think? It's time to know if the forum will live up to its name or not.
Conservative Christianity is defined by its allegiance to the Holy Scriptures and the traditional beliefs and teachings of the Christian Church on issues of theology and morality.
.........................................................................................................................
That's OUR Wiki folks, this forum's statement, or at least the first paragraph in it. Notice that there is a definition of a Conservative Christian and it doesn't say that either word means whatever anyone wants to make out of it.
So, it's simple. Can those who do not subscribe to it be here? Sure. Should they engage in proving in post after post that this definition or its values are wrong? NO.
Otherwise, you will get exactly what one of our people who recently wrote that she'd be leaving described--that it should not be necessary on a Conservative forum TO HAVE TO DEFEND CONSERVATIVE VIEWS against attacks.
I think that line said more than I'd tried to say in a half-dozen posts.
So what do you all think? It's time to know if the forum will live up to its name or not.
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talitha
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1 Timothy 2
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
(these things do not matter in the sight of God - they don't impress Him)
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. (this is what matters to Him)
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
(this is not women as opposed to men, but subjection as opposed to rebelliousness - this is the same manner in which men ought to learn, but apparently the women in that time and place were particularly rebellious)
12But I suffer not a woman to teach
(This seems to me to contradict Galatians 3:28, so I don't know what to make of it - unless Codger is right....... When two scritpures SEEM to contradict one another, I know that there is something wrong in the way I am looking at them, and I wait for God to reveal - I don't form an opinion, in other words.....)
, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
(women should not USURP authority - they should not take authority over men that they do not have - in Greek society in that time, women had no voice - along came the church, and there was FREEDOM in Christ - but these women evidently were using their freedom as an occasion to the flesh. Paul said NO.)
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
(Honestly I don't know how to understand this. When I look at the creation account, it seems to me that God created Adam alone first and allowed him to see that he needed help, and then created someone who could stand beside him like none of the animals could - a counterpart. I don't understand what Paul is trying to prove here, unless Codger is right....)
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(Again, I don't know what Paul was trying to prove - the fact that Adam was not deceived means to me that he walked right into sin, knowing what he was doing, whereas Eve had to be deceived. Adam did what he did to please Eve. Maybe this relates to the reasons for Paul's saying he didn't permit women to teach men - because men are more easily led astray? If a deceived woman teaches a man, she can easily lead him astray, particularly if she has an 'intimate' relationship with him - or if that is a possibility.)
just some thoughts - again, I don't have complete understanding.....
9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
(these things do not matter in the sight of God - they don't impress Him)
10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. (this is what matters to Him)
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
(this is not women as opposed to men, but subjection as opposed to rebelliousness - this is the same manner in which men ought to learn, but apparently the women in that time and place were particularly rebellious)
12But I suffer not a woman to teach
(This seems to me to contradict Galatians 3:28, so I don't know what to make of it - unless Codger is right....... When two scritpures SEEM to contradict one another, I know that there is something wrong in the way I am looking at them, and I wait for God to reveal - I don't form an opinion, in other words.....)
, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
(women should not USURP authority - they should not take authority over men that they do not have - in Greek society in that time, women had no voice - along came the church, and there was FREEDOM in Christ - but these women evidently were using their freedom as an occasion to the flesh. Paul said NO.)
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
(Honestly I don't know how to understand this. When I look at the creation account, it seems to me that God created Adam alone first and allowed him to see that he needed help, and then created someone who could stand beside him like none of the animals could - a counterpart. I don't understand what Paul is trying to prove here, unless Codger is right....)
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
(Again, I don't know what Paul was trying to prove - the fact that Adam was not deceived means to me that he walked right into sin, knowing what he was doing, whereas Eve had to be deceived. Adam did what he did to please Eve. Maybe this relates to the reasons for Paul's saying he didn't permit women to teach men - because men are more easily led astray? If a deceived woman teaches a man, she can easily lead him astray, particularly if she has an 'intimate' relationship with him - or if that is a possibility.)
just some thoughts - again, I don't have complete understanding.....
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Quote:
Conservative Christianity is defined by its allegiance to the Holy Scriptures and the traditional beliefs and teachings of the Christian Church on issues of theology and morality.
Oh, humm..... that is NOT what I wrote - I don't know who changed it, but I guess I should've looked more closely at it.
I have just been looking at that!
And, if the bit about traditional beliefs and teachings remains, I shall have to leave.
There are many traditional church teachings which are not in line with scripture!!
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