Women in Leadership Positions in the Church

[Reluctant Theologian]

I absolutely agree that the cultures in which the Scriptures were written were profoundly patriarchal, and that patriarchal norms shaped various aspects of Scripture (and how those Scriptures have been received since they were written). But I also find in Scripture elements which subvert patriarchal norms, and it is my position that patriarchy was never God's will; it is an aspect of human culture which is sinful, a result of the fall, and that the reign of God (of which the Church is a sign, instrument and foretaste) is not patriarchal and should not conform itself to patriarchal norms.

Your statement makes me happy in that (a) it indeed acknowledges the patriarchal patterns found in the Bible, and I also like your clarity/brevity on the position that (b) patriarchy was never God's will and therefore sinful and should be avoided in the Church now.

My mind is not made up fully on your position (b) - I'm leaning towards disagreement, but that's something for a later post; at least we got the presumptions for the discussion clear I appreciate that, thank you.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I remember sister Mary Ann as a sweet and kind woman. She was a great leader.

 

[Paidiske]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

I definitely would, given that in my experience women in ministry tend to dress particularly conservatively/modestly to overcompensate for the sexualised way in which we are perceived and treated.

Women certainly have our own areas of weakness and temptation, but from what I've observed, for women in ministry, sexual corruption doesn't seem to be as prevalent as for men.

 

[Paidiske]

It's a lot easier for a woman pastor to get away with sexual corruption, I'd think. Nobody would even know or care.

Why would you think that people would know or care less when a woman does it, than when a man does it?

(For what it's worth, I'm not sure that that's true. I'm well aware of how even very innocent interactions can be misconstrued).

 

[Will Joseph]

I post prostitution crime articles on many forums and nobody seems to criminalize the women. If anything, people encourage them or say that the prostitute didnt do anything wrong. In some countries, prostitution is even legal. It's utterly disgusting.

But when a man acts sexual, he gets thrown in jail and everyone criminalizes him. It has little to do with gender and more to do with society. Most societies seem to be more likely to prosecute a male sex offender than a female sex offender. Most societies seem to be more lenient and empathetic towards women being prosecuted. It's quite sexist. And even when a woman was sexual, if any man was connected to the sexual offense, then most societies would be more likely to pin all the blame on that man instead.

This seeming sexism in most societies is why I'm happy to be a celibate virgin. I don't feel safe being with any woman in a society where I can be falsely accused of a sexual wrong simply due to my gender.

 

[Paidiske]

And even when a woman was sexual, if any man was connected to the sexual offense, then most societies would be more likely to pin all the blame on that man instead.

Really? In my experience, women are the ones who are blamed and shamed, and men are given a free pass. It's quite the double standard.

I don't feel safe being with any woman in a society where I can be falsely accused of a sexual wrong simply due to my gender.

It's a shame that you don't feel safe, but I'd have to suggest that it's largely an irrational fear.

Either way, absolutely none of this has to do with the suitability of women for ministry.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Really? In my experience, women are the ones who are blamed and shamed, and men are given a free pass. It's quite the double standard.

It's a shame that you don't feel safe, but I'd have to suggest that it's largely an irrational fear.

Either way, absolutely none of this has to do with the suitability of women for ministry.

Yes, this is a rather odd tangent to the OP.

 

[coffee4u]

But when a man acts sexual, he gets thrown in jail and everyone criminalizes him.

That is true but you are missing the other part of society where men are patted on the back for 'scoring' and get told to 'sew your wild oats'. Meanwhile girls are seen as '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s' for doing the same thing. The guy is said to be a 'stud' she is said to be a 'wore'
These same men expect the girl they marry to be virgins yet they may have had 20 partners and that's seen as fine. Double standards.
That whole culture of men playing the field and good girls vs bad girls is probably fading, now it appears both sides are equally immoral and society is fine with it.

A man only gets 'thrown in jail' for rape, as he should be. Not to say that women have never committed forced sexual acts but they can't rape in the same sense and in an attack who do you think is likely to win, the man or the woman? The majority of men are way stronger and faster then the average woman. Any man who takes advantage of that deserves to be in jail.

Sorry that word appear to be censored. I used the Slu word once and only because this is what they are called.

 

[bekkilyn]

I think I've typed something and erased it about 5 times now because I'm just...I mean I don't even know what I am LOL

This thread is just nuts!

Even so, I don't think calling one's brothers or sisters in Christ sexually perverse prostitutes really falls under John 13:34-35.

Please go and get counseling. There is no reason to live under a rock in fear of everything. As people of Christ, we're not supposed to live our lives in fear.

 

[Will Joseph]

I'm not sexist. I do not believe that a female pastor would act less sexual than a male pastor. If you all want to be sexist and say that females act less sexual than males, then go ahead. But know that I'm a male celibate virgin. And know that the church apparently doesn't allow female pastors despite your sexist assumption of women being less likely to be in a sex scandal.

You are not fooling me nor the church.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm not sexist. I do not believe that a female pastor would act less sexual than a male pastor. If you all want to be sexist and say that females act less sexual than males, then go ahead. But know that I'm a male celibate virgin. And know that the church apparently doesn't allow female pastors despite your sexist assumption of women being less likely to be in a sex scandal.

You are not fooling me nor the church.

Several things.

1. In general, the vast majority of ministers - male and female - keep their sexual behaviour where it belongs (ie. in their marriages, or if single, not dating those under their pastoral care).

2. While I am aware of women who have been removed from ministry for various sorts of misconduct, I am not aware of any who have been removed for sexual misconduct. I can't say the same for men. I'm not making a "women are better than men" argument, but it does seem to me that this is not women's struggle to the same degree.

3. I'm not saying women "act less sexual" than men. But when we look at the reality of ministry, women's sexuality - or indeed our bodies and behaviours more generally - tends to be far more scrutinised and policed than men's does. (If you want to dispute that, get back to me when you've found a man who's been told he shouldn't be in ministry because his knees are too distracting, for example).

4. I'm a woman who's a priest, so I'm well aware of what the churches do and don't allow.

Nobody's trying to fool you, but you seem to have a poor grasp of the actual lived reality of ministry, or indeed of women in general.

 

[bekkilyn]

I can't think of anyone I've known whether in or out of ministry who has ever been involved in a sex scandal, but in reading this thread, you would think that sex scandals were popping up everywhere like squirrels. We can't even leave our houses because a sex scandal is out there just waiting to get at us!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Several things.

1. In general, the vast majority of ministers - male and female - keep their sexual behaviour where it belongs (ie. in their marriages, or if single, not dating those under their pastoral care).

2. While I am aware of women who have been removed from ministry for various sorts of misconduct, I am not aware of any who have been removed for sexual misconduct. I can't say the same for men. I'm not making a "women are better than men" argument, but it does seem to me that this is not women's struggle to the same degree.

3. I'm not saying women "act less sexual" than men. But when we look at the reality of ministry, women's sexuality - or indeed our bodies and behaviours more generally - tends to be far more scrutinised and policed than men's does. (If you want to dispute that, get back to me when you've found a man who's been told he shouldn't be in ministry because his knees are too distracting, for example).

4. I'm a woman who's a priest, so I'm well aware of what the churches do and don't allow.

Nobody's trying to fool you, but you seem to have a poor grasp of the actual lived reality of ministry, or indeed of women in general.

For what it is worth, in my (relatively) limited interactions with Christian ministers, I have not encountered any female ministers who have acted improperly sexually, but have known some men who definitely have. I particularly remember one man. We were discussing potential plans for a church building and he was quite insistent that there be no windows in his office - either in the wall or in the door - because his counseling was personal and private. Later in the conversation he told me, much to my amazement, that he had two passions in life - God and sex, in that order. In my opinion this was a very unwise man who needed some serious counseling himself.

 

[Jay Sea]

I post prostitution crime articles on many forums and nobody seems to criminalize the women. If anything, people encourage them or say that the prostitute didnt do anything wrong. In some countries, prostitution is even legal. It's utterly disgusting.

But when a man acts sexual, he gets thrown in jail and everyone criminalizes him. It has little to do with gender and more to do with society. Most societies seem to be more likely to prosecute a male sex offender than a female sex offender. Most societies seem to be more lenient and empathetic towards women being prosecuted. It's quite sexist. And even when a woman was sexual, if any man was connected to the sexual offense, then most societies would be more likely to pin all the blame on that man instead.

This seeming sexism in most societies is why I'm happy to be a celibate virgin. I don't feel safe being with any woman in a society where I can be falsely accused of a sexual wrong simply due to my gender.

The problem here is neither about male or female's sexual lives but the relevance to women in ministry. Both are on equal footing under G-d. Are you going to blame G-d for the differences in tendencies. Is it not said we will not be tempted beyond what we can normally resist. If we cannot resist; either we are acting by choice or by pathology and we need to seek help. Putting the blame on women sound very like the attitude of my father's generation. AS far as men being jailed that is because the deserve it because there was no consent. [Conventual sex between consenting, paid or not, adults should not be criminal.] Government is not about morality but protection of the vulnerable.
In LOve
Jay Sea

 

[Paidiske]

I can't think of anyone I've known whether in or out of ministry who has ever been involved in a sex scandal...

Sadly, I have. There was the bloke who was caught with child porn, and the bloke who left his wife for a parishioner, and the one who was having an affair with his secretary, and... ooh... another couple of child porn ones. One who did some things with young boys that, while I've never heard all the details, saw him defrocked. All men in ministry whom I knew personally or who were only two degrees of separation away (leaving aside the ones who make headlines). It is a thing, sadly.

We were discussing potential plans for a church building and he was quite insistent that there be no windows in his office - either in the wall or in the door - because his counseling was personal and private.

Far out, that's just scary. Confidentiality and privacy is one thing, but that's a whole other level.

 

[Will Joseph]

Yeah, next time someone post anything sexist (like stating that a female pastor would have a lesser chance of being in a sex scandal than a male pastor) I'm probably just going to avoid that topic. I shouldn't respond or give any attention to sexism, just as I dont give any attention to racism.

Too many people here seem to support a sexist mindset, even though the bible clearly informs people that both women and men can be sexually perverse.

I'm happy that I'm not sexist and that I can see sexual perversion in both genders. My judgement is not perverted by nor favoring any gender.

I just feel sad for other people who believe that women act less sexual than men, even those same people who become prey to female sexual predators. I pray that the Lord saves those people from disease and robbery.

 

[bekkilyn]

Sadly, I have. There was the bloke who was caught with child porn, and the bloke who left his wife for a parishioner, and the one who was having an affair with his secretary, and... ooh... another couple of child porn ones. One who did some things with young boys that, while I've never heard all the details, saw him defrocked. All men in ministry whom I knew personally or who were only two degrees of separation away (leaving aside the ones who make headlines). It is a thing, sadly.

Oh it's definitely a thing, but it's still quite rare compared to the vast numbers of people who are not involved in such scandals. Definitely not something to spend a major amount of time being personally anxious over to the point where we can't have normal interactions with other people of either sex.

 

[Strong in Him]

I feel that sex scandals are a social or societal issue rather than a gender or personal issue. For instance, I would not be surprised nor accepting if a woman pastor wore tight jeans or transparent clothing in her church.

I would be very surprised, and not accepting, if a woman wore tight jeans and transparent clothing when leading public worship and preaching the Gospel. Just as I would if men wore shorts/speedos and a bright holiday shirt.

I would not be comfortable if the woman pastor was sleeping with donors, to increase donations.

I would not be comfortable if any Minister of the Gospel was sleeping around to get donations to the church; such a thing goes against Scripture and is not good, Christ-like behaviour.

I'm surprised you imply that any pastor would do this.

In fact, I feel that a woman pastor might be more likely to be corrupt and act like a prostitute if she lives in a society that accepts or doesn't punish prostitution.

Why?
Those who train as, and are then ordained as, Ministers are Christians - people of good character who are called by, God to have spiritual charge of a congregation, teaching and guiding them in the faith, visiting the sick and so on.
Why would you even think that a female Minister might say "oh good; my society accepts prostitution, I think I'll do a bit of that in my spare time"? Why associate female Ministers with prostitution at all?
If, for some reason, you are looking at the number of clergy who sin and have affairs, how many of them are men?
Why link sexual activity and morals with a call to priesthood and imply it is women who are more likely to be found wanting?

I would not be opposed to a woman pastor. But I don't agree that the chance of sexual corruption is smaller with women pastors.

I don't know whether it is or not.
If you really have an interest in the matter - and I don't know why you would - how many male clergy had been in compromising positions with women, or even with other men, and/or had affairs?

That some might, regrettably, sin and/or bring their calling into disrepute has nothing to do with whether they had that calling in the first place.
Even the anointed King David lusted and committed adultery - yet he repented, was called a man after God's heart and God made a covenant with him.

 

[pescador]

I can't convince you otherwise. A lot of people accept or do not police sexual women or women who commit sexual crime, so I can't really convince you that women act as sexually perverse as men. But hey, women aren't pastors apparently, so I wonder who's right . . . I guess the church knows about the corrupt societal sexual acceptance of women and have kept women away from being pastors for that reason.

Have you considered why you can't convince her otherwise? Perhaps because you're obviously wrong?

 

[Strong in Him]

I guess the church knows about the corrupt societal sexual acceptance of women and have kept women away from being pastors for that reason.

But it hasn't.
Anglican, Methodist, URC and other churches accept women as Ministers - in fact, as Superintendents, Bishops and Moderators too. The SA don't ordain people but they allow women to preach and lead their groups - William Booth's daughter, or granddaughter, led the whole of the SA at one point.

As far as I can see, it is only you who has brought up the idea of women being sexually corrupt/prostitutes, with no evidence.