Women Can't Preach

[cubanito]

There is a narrow path wherin is Truth. Deviation from it is destructive sinful evil. The path is at some points more clearly marked by Scripture than others. That women are not to hold authority over men in the Church is clearly set forth.

When Jesus came He found what has been generally true throughout history and geography: that men were abusing their authority over women and treated them little better than cattle. There have been some exeptions to this in history, but it was certainly a fact of the 30AD Roman Empire AND Jewish culture that women were greatly oppressed. Jesus and the Apostles lifted the perceived value and rights of women to an astonishing degree. While the interaction of Jesus with men were varied, EVERY interaction of our Lord with women ended in affirmation of the woman (even when it began badly).

Every culture where Christianity has had a major influence has seen a dramatic rise in the lot of women, children, the poor and weak. Women have been a MAJOR influence in the spread of Christianity (read how Christianity came to Clovis of the Franks, or the Vikings). The lot of women in most all other religions, especially the eastern religions like Bhuddism, Hinduism, ect has not improved under them at all.

However, Christianity has now been replaced in the west by something else, something which is a shadow of Christianity mixed with all manner of error. Western culture, now including the USA, is rightly termed "post-Christian."

The pendulum has swung too far. Most Churches which at times strayed from the path by being somewhat too restrictive and opressive of women have now overstepped in the other direction.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in power, glory, majesty ect. But there is a hierarchy of FUNCTION within the Eternal Trinity. Thus the Son OBEYS the Father. Thus the woman is COMMANDED to obey her own husband (not any man, but her own husband). The obedience is conditional, as is the husband's obedience to the elders of his Church or the secular Government; but it is real.

Women are not to hold authority over men in the Church. We are given 2 reasons: the order of creation and the fact that woman was more easily deceived. Eve did not openly rebel, as in fact there is no record of God ever telling her not to eat of the fruit. Rather, it was through Adam that sin entered the world; for he openly and knowingly rebelled- BY LISTENING TO THE VOICE OF HIS WIFE.

Go ahead and twist Scripture all you want now. Pretend it says the opposite of what it says. Pretend that Ecclesiastes does not remark that while he has only seen one wise man in 1,000; he has never seen one wise woman (though there are records of wise women in the Bible, such as the wife of Nabal).

Look at the great heresies of Church History, there is a disproportianete high number led or influenced by women.

As for me, I will follow the simple reading of Scripture.

I will not willingly sit under a woman preacher. And my wife and daughters are even more adamant of this opinion.

JR

 

[Jack Koons]

There is a narrow path wherin is Truth. Deviation from it is destructive sinful evil. The path is at some points more clearly marked by Scripture than others. That women are not to hold authority over men in the Church is clearly set forth.

When Jesus came He found what has been generally true throughout history and geography: that men were abusing their authority over women and treated them little better than cattle. There have been some exeptions to this in history, but it was certainly a fact of the 30AD Roman Empire AND Jewish culture that women were greatly oppressed. Jesus and the Apostles lifted the perceived value and rights of women to an astonishing degree. While the interaction of Jesus with men were varied, EVERY interaction of our Lord with women ended in affirmation of the woman (even when it began badly).

Every culture where Christianity has had a major influence has seen a dramatic rise in the lot of women, children, the poor and weak. Women have been a MAJOR influence in the spread of Christianity (read how Christianity came to Clovis of the Franks, or the Vikings). The lot of women in most all other religions, especially the eastern religions like Bhuddism, Hinduism, ect has not improved under them at all.

However, Christianity has now been replaced in the west by something else, something which is a shadow of Christianity mixed with all manner of error. Western culture, now including the USA, is rightly termed "post-Christian."

The pendulum has swung too far. Most Churches which at times strayed from the path by being somewhat too restrictive and opressive of women have now overstepped in the other direction.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in power, glory, majesty ect. But there is a hierarchy of FUNCTION within the Eternal Trinity. Thus the Son OBEYS the Father. Thus the woman is COMMANDED to obey her own husband (not any man, but her own husband). The obedience is conditional, as is the husband's obedience to the elders of his Church or the secular Government; but it is real.

Women are not to hold authority over men in the Church. We are given 2 reasons: the order of creation and the fact that woman was more easily deceived. Eve did not openly rebel, as in fact there is no record of God ever telling her not to eat of the fruit. Rather, it was through Adam that sin entered the world; for he openly and knowingly rebelled- BY LISTENING TO THE VOICE OF HIS WIFE.

Go ahead and twist Scripture all you want now. Pretend it says the opposite of what it says. Pretend that Ecclesiastes does not remark that while he has only seen one wise man in 1,000; he has never seen one wise woman (though there are records of wise women in the Bible, such as the wife of Nabal).

Look at the great heresies of Church History, there is a disproportianete high number led or influenced by women.

As for me, I will follow the simple reading of Scripture.

I will not willingly sit under a woman preacher. And my wife and daughters are even more adamant of this opinion.

JR

Well said, I agree.

Jack

 

[mafwons]

Our culture is better than Islamic culture because women take an active part in our society. They have jobs, they have independence, they have political power, they have respect etc. This has been achieved with hard fought and won victories in the 20th century. Don't turn back what has been achieved cupcake - don't let our society become like the Muslim's vile culture.

Our culture should not play in to the interpretation of scripture. In Muslim society the government often rules based on one or another interpretations of Muslim beliefs. We are talking here about the hierarchy within the church, which is not the law of the land, nor do I know of any scripture that indicates we should make it so. Obviously in this case there will be conflit between the cultural view and the Biblical view. This is about the Bilical view which unlike culture does not change. Women were not to be over men 2000 years ago, they are not to be over men today, and in the unlikely case the world is here in 2000 years that fact will not have changed.

 

[cubanito]

Our culture should not play in to the interpretation of scripture. In Muslim society the government often rules based on one or another interpretations of Muslim beliefs. We are talking here about the hierarchy within the church, which is not the law of the land, nor do I know of any scripture that indicates we should make it so. Obviously in this case there will be conflit between the cultural view and the Biblical view. This is about the Bilical view which unlike culture does not change. Women were not to be over men 2000 years ago, they are not to be over men today, and in the unlikely case the world is here in 2000 years that fact will not have changed.

excellent point, nowhere in Scripture are women barred from civil authority (see dEBORAH). Always in Scripture they barred from ecclesiatical authority.

In the same way, I insist that my wife and unmarried daughters put something on their heads, even if it only be sunglasses or a thin headband, so they specifically acknowledge to the onlooking angels that in our home we respect the simple reading of Scripture and the hierarchical authority that is the Trinity. However, I have NO interest in having them cover their heads out and about. Rarely do I even mention their choice in clothes, and I think it contrary to Scripture for a Church to demand a woman wear a dress as this has NO Biblical warrant.

The above posts brings out a crucial difference: Islam and Atheism are the two religions that most politicize their views and demand to take over outside the spiritual realm.

Obviously there are political ramifications to Christianity, such as our oposition to abortion. However, Islam and atheism infiltrate into every aspect of politics. I lived under Castro's Cuba, I know of the religion of atheism firsthand.

JR

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

1- Qualifications for Elders and Deacons are stated flatly as "Husband of one wife." While we may quibble as to whether this was to exclude polygamists (which was legal then, and still in much of the world), or divorced, it is eminently clear it excludes women. Homosexual marriage is a novel invention of the 21st century.

2- In addition, the reason given is not that there was disruption, but that "Adam was created first" and that "Eve was deceived and so fell into sin" as opposed to Adam who rebelled openly (God had only commanded Adam to not eat from the tree, There is no record of God commanding Eve before the fall to do other than "Be fruitful and multiply" which she clearly obeyed. This is why JC had to be born of a virgin. It was Adam, not Eve, through whom sin entered the world.

3- Lastly we have the historical record. Anytime women have been allowed to preach, the entire denomination is already messed up. It happens AFTER they give up Biblical inerrancy, and active unrepentant homosexual acceptance, abortion and all the other "accomodations" follow. We also have the fact that no Godly woman in the entire Bible EVER leads. Deborah did not lead, she judged. From the NASB:

Judges 4:4 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time. 5 She used to sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim; and the sons of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6 Now she sent and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali, and said to him, “Behold, the Lord, the God of Israel, has commanded, ‘Go and march to Mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men from the sons of Naphtali and from the sons of Zebulun. 7 I will draw out to you Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his [d]many troops to the river Kishon, and I will give him into your hand.’” 8 Then Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” 9 She said, “I will surely go with you; nevertheless, the honor shall not be yours on the journey that you are about to take, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hands of a woman.” Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh. 10 Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali together to Kedesh, and ten thousand men went up [e]with him; Deborah also went up with him.

Note that again: "the Lord, the God of Israel, has commanded," not I Deborah. She was a prophetess, which role IS Biblical for women. A prophet might be a leader, such as Moses, but more often they advice leaders, like Samuel did Saul, Nathan David and so on.

This is one of the reason I hate the NIV. Deborah JUDGED, she did not lead. Because Barak refused to lead alone, she followed him. Even so, her being a judge was not ideal. This was a chotic time where the recurring phrase "every man did what was right in his own eyes" shows that.

When there is not a person willing to do as God says, others get drafted. It was Adam's place to contest with the serpent, but he stood back passively, waiting to see if his wife would die. When JC is asked to quiet those welcoming Him to Jerusalem, JC states that if there were no people to praise His entrance, the very rocks would come alive to do it.

Deborah is an example of something very frequent today. Men escape their responsibilities at home and Church into football or whatever. A void is created. Sometimes women are pulled into that void, but as Deborah illustrates, it is NOT the ideal situation. It becomes an occasion to mock men for their cowardice and passivity, and their honor is taken away.

If a woman is leading and preaching to men in the Church, for sure something is very wrong. It may be the woman's fault, but more often it is the men at fault. In either case, it is not right.

cubanito you truly are my brother, every time I read a post from you, it is as I am reading from my own mind, we truly are of one mind Praise the Lord God, as he brings his church into one mind and one accord, though the two may have never met, this is truly the Spirit of God, reassuring his children that the truths they hold are indeed of God and not of man