Wolves

[Time2BCounted]

isn't the image of the sheep, those who follow "anyone" or "anything". That is to say easily swayed. That would make the sheep not good at determining who is and who is not a wolf would it?

Some time ago, I was on a thread that supposedly was addressing the idea of how to identify the wolves among us, or at least false teachers. I was disturbed by how many people dismissed scriptures and argued for or against favorite teachers rather than to measure by God's criteria. So the question then is 1. how do you identify them, and 2. when they are identified how do you warn the sheep without harming those same sheep, especially if the sheep want the wolf there?

I think referring to the flock of God as sheep is very scriptural actually, and we are to follow God. The problem is we are in the days of apostacy when it is prophecied the church will depart from sound doctirne and fall away imho

Jesus pretty much just warned everyone straight up about ravening wolves. Not so much individuals however.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.


We are commanded to be wise, and wisdom dictates we know the word.

In the end days however we are told that many will depart from the faith, so actually we can expect the wolves to be many and they wont spare the flock.

How do you identify them is a good quesiton. For one they will lead one form the truth in God's word

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi Razz, welcome and great questions...

Thanks, you opinion might wear off soon I am afraid, I love questions and the harder the question the better I like it, so hang on for a while and your bound to want to see me leave. I am enjoying this thread however, thanks for letting me stick around.

 

[Time2BCounted]

The image of sheep with swords kind of disturbs me, I see the sheep so startled at the mention of wolves that they attack anything that moves, including each other. Sounds like a lot of churches today, sheep attacking each other rather than the enemy. Ah well, it isn't all bad to arm sheep with swords I guess.

Jesus did

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

We had better be armed with the sword imho, its the word of God in this instance

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Thanks, you opinion might wear off soon I am afraid, I love questions and the harder the question the better I like it, so hang on for a while and your bound to want to see me leave. I am enjoying this thread however, thanks for letting me stick around.

questions are just fine

 

[razzelflabben]

I think referring to the flock of God as sheep is very scriptural actually, and we are to follow God. The problem is we are in the days of apostacy when it is prophecied the church will depart from sound doctirne and fall away imho

Jesus pretty much just warned everyone straight up about ravening wolves. Not so much individuals however.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.


We are commanded to be wise, and wisdom dictates we know the word.

In the end days however we are told that many will depart from the faith, so actually we can expect the wolves to be many and they wont spare the flock.

How do you identify them is a good quesiton. For one they will lead one form the truth in God's word

I think the scariest thing I have faced in my life is how few people who call themselves Christ's, actually know the word of God or act in love to one another. That being said, I think the bible is pretty clear about how to identify the wolves among us, (though most people don't bother with knowing what that is) the real trick is to warn the sheep in such a way that they will respond positively to God.

Let me explain a bit where I am coming from with this line of questioning. My dear husband, went to seminary to become a pastor dispite his great desire to be anything but. God directed and laid out the path and so we went down that path. His first church was a small church in the midwest. The first official sermon as pastor was the good samaritan and from this story he brought out what and who loved. IOW's the sermon was about love. The congregation became so upset that long story short, they tried to control him by threats, when he insisted that he remain true to the word of God, they attacked me, when that didn't work, they attacked the kids. When that didn't work, they fired him. This is one of many stories I could tell, not just to us, but to other pastors as well.

Now I am not the kind of person that can sit back and watch someone being destroyed without doing something, even if only a warning, to help. It isn't in me, at least since God taught me how to love. But time and time again I see sheep who are so "defiant" that they can't hear the warnings, the messages of Christ. They shun all resemblance of God and exchange it for messages that proclaim His name but not His heart. How then do we warn them without condemning? without judging? When we identify wolves according to the markings laid out is scripture, how do we warn the sheep without judgment? without condemning? without driving the sheep further from the truth? from God?

 

[razzelflabben]

Jesus did

Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

We had better be armed with the sword imho, its the word of God in this instance

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

agreed, the disturbing part is how few sheep know how to handle the sword. Christ never misused the sword and the end result was healing not the shedding of innocent blood. If the sheep knew how to use the sword (word), it wouldn't be a disturbing image at all.

 

[Time2BCounted]

How did paul handle the sword?

 

[razzelflabben]

How did paul handle the sword?

Go on....finish your thought, I'm intrigued and listening.....

 

[Nadiine]

[bible]Matthew 7:15[/bible]

How are we to respond to people like this? Have been thinking about it and have been praying about it all day, but I can't get beyond my own anger at the manipulation and mask being worn.

What are we called to do when we recognize a wolf? Pray for them? Rebuke them? What do we do?

I did a study on this a few years ago; we're to beware and stay away from them.
I also found in my study that they werent' witnessed to, they were always rebuked with harshness and they gave warnings to other Christians about them specifically (by name).

If you use the analogy of "sheep and wolves" as God calls us Sheep, what do sheep do when there's prey around? Walk up & introduce yourself?
Stay there?
When there's prey, we RUN - flee, stay away, keep on guard from them.... warn others... etc.
This isn't a "love relationship" with the one who wants to take us down.

We're called to divide from this type. If i get time I'll drop some verses in.

 

[Nadiine]

Now I am not the kind of person that can sit back and watch someone being destroyed without doing something, even if only a warning, to help. It isn't in me, at least since God taught me how to love. But time and time again I see sheep who are so "defiant" that they can't hear the warnings, the messages of Christ. They shun all resemblance of God and exchange it for messages that proclaim His name but not His heart. How then do we warn them without condemning? without judging? When we identify wolves according to the markings laid out is scripture, how do we warn the sheep without judgment? without condemning? without driving the sheep further from the truth? from God?

Much of the church today imho LACKS DISCERNMENT - they aren't praying for it; they're all focused on "love" without the alternate side of wisdom to use the love correctly.

"be WISE as snakes and innocent as doves". We aren't listening to God or His word today, we're living off "feelings" - how I "FEEL" I should act - what I think God wants (based on the distorted view of what love is and isn't).

Utterly ignoring all the scriptures that teach when to divide, when to rebuke, when to judge, and when to STOP casting pearls. WE AREN'T OBEYING GOD's full counsel, and this is the result; a lukewarm, fuzzym anemic church that coddles wolves... & worse, can't even SPOT THEM!

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
​

It's my guess that many are not bothering to read their bibles, and if that's not the case, many refuse to OBEY what they do read, or aren't being taught by a qualified teacher or sitting under a qualified Shepherd, or are in some rebellion.

Many today are refusing to be Taught.
​

2 Peter 3:16-17
16 as also in all his [Pauls] letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,​

 

[Time2BCounted]

Razz are we to be like Christ or no? Is He our example?

 

[razzelflabben]

I find all your answers fascinating and dare I say it, biblical. But I am also an idealist and as such, I believe that some people can be reached if they are warned correctly. So to that end, what are the specifics on how to warn people who don't want to be warned?

Our churches are messed up for lack of Christ. We have seen repeatedly churches trading Christ for emotionalism. And the result is wolves who seek to devour. So we speak the word of truth in love. But what does that sound like, from us as well as to the sheep we are talking to. What comes from the heart as love is not always received as love to the ears of those who the message is meant for.

So we speak the truth in love and it is rejected. Sometimes we are labeled falsely because of it. But we do it anyway, we find ourselves hated simply because we love the Lord and obey His commands. Who has been helped? Many years ago, I read the verse that says that they will hate you because they hated Christ first. I prayed that night that I would have God so alive in my life that the people that hate Christ would also hate me because they see Him in me. But the chatch 22 so to speak of all this is that people hate and never listen. They go to tier deaths content to hate and never see that love is staring them in the face. How do we remove, or disarm their hate long enough for them to see Love?

Another hint to this entire thing is the lessons of Love God has been teaching me, Love is not always what we think it is. Sometimes it looks like something else at first and like love only after we get past the initial "pain" of the message.

Does any of this make sense? I warned you I like questions.

 

[razzelflabben]

Razz are we to be like Christ or no? Is He our example?

Like Christ but not Christ. Keep going, I like where you are going so far, how about some specifics.......

 

[IamRedeemed]

Bingo! ding ding ding ding ding!
:tap: :tap: Is this thing on?

Much of the church today imho LACKS DISCERNMENT - they aren't praying for it; they're all focused on "love" without the alternate side of wisdom to use the love correctly.

"be WISE as snakes and innocent as doves". We aren't listening to God or His word today, we're living off "feelings" - how I "FEEL" I should act - what I think God wants (based on the distorted view of what love is and isn't).

Utterly ignoring all the scriptures that teach when to divide, when to rebuke, when to judge, and when to STOP casting pearls. WE AREN'T OBEYING GOD's full counsel, and this is the result; a lukewarm, fuzzym anemic church that coddles wolves... & worse, can't even SPOT THEM!

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being My priest
Since you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children.
​

It's my guess that many are not bothering to read their bibles, and if that's not the case, many refuse to OBEY what they do read, or aren't being taught by a qualified teacher or sitting under a qualified Shepherd, or are in some rebellion.

Many today are refusing to be Taught.
​

2 Peter 3:16-17
16 as also in all his [Pauls] letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,​

 

[Im_A]

I think historically wolves have referred to those of a predatory nature~especially in positions of authority or influence.

sorry for a late response here. but i agree. and as must of us here at CF are Americain or Eurpoean and Austrailian, we sit safe and sound on our computers and talk about God, our faith to people of all types of nationalities, ethicnicity etc. no wolves after our faith, but yet still trying to protect ourselves from the proverbial "wolf dressed as a sheep". i don't understand it.

I tend to think more along the lines of some rather unsavory televangelists myself....

i agree with you there.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Like Christ but not Christ. Keep going, I like where you are going so far, how about some specifics.......

Well if Christ is our example, and we are to be like Christ, is this unchristlike?? Who should i apply this to? Or is this lacking love?

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Is this someone destroying the flock? Unloving? Unkind? Did Jesus not show the love of Jesus here? Are we to follow Him or not? Are we to be LIKE CHRIST? How can we neglect the time and place for this rebuke and be like Christ and claim to be following?

Some people dont understand real love... or righteousness... or standing

What about paul... he was like Christ, and what did he say?

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

 

[Im_A]

Well if Christ is our example, and we are to be like Christ, is this unchristlike?? Who should i apply this to? Or is this lacking love?

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Is this someone destroying the flock? Unloving? Unkind? Did Jesus not show the love of Jesus here? Are we to follow Him or not? Are we to be LIKE CHRIST? How can we neglect the time and place for this rebuke and be like Christ and claim to be following?

Some people dont understand real love... or righteousness... or standing

What about paul... he was like Christ, and what did he say?

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

you should apply it to Jesus's reaction to the religious establishment of the day.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Yes by how... apllying it personally to the religious establishment today? Or are we not to really be like Christ?

 

[Im_A]

Yes by how... apllying it personally to the religious establishment today? Or are we not to really be like Christ?

i think we have to figure that out in our own lives. we know Christ gave us the two greatest commandments. we know Christ never failed those even in those verses you gave us. so we know what to do, we just have to figure it out in our own lives.

but if we are to live our lives technically as the Gospels would write, it seems easy for me at least to assume that if i'm to pick and choose who i'm harsh with(harsh is just because there is no better word i can think of at the moment), it would be the religious establishment and no one else.

or are we to take everything out of historical context and then metaphorically apply it to our lives so we are in "accordance with scrpture"? (btw T2, i'm not meaning that in a negative connotation by any means here.)

 

[IamRedeemed]

True. And the wolves are not the ones who will speak these things. Remember, they are wolves in sheep's clothing, just as satan appears as an angel of light.

They will appear as harmless do-gooders. They are crafty and suggestive, they will divide and conquer from within, usually by constantly speaking against those who would put forth a strong message and causing confusion and a lopsided view, and cause the sheep to bite the backs of the one's who truly love them.

A servant of the Lord, will teach the WHOLE counsel of God. Provide the sheep with a BALANCED diet. Not keep giving them the baby bottle and never allow them to grow up and eat meat, so that they will be essentially ineffective
for the kingdom of God and ineffective against the wiles of the enemy. Infants crying for a pacifier.

selah

Well if Christ is our example, and we are to be like Christ, is this unchristlike?? Who should i apply this to? Or is this lacking love?

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Is this someone destroying the flock? Unloving? Unkind? Did Jesus not show the love of Jesus here? Are we to follow Him or not? Are we to be LIKE CHRIST? How can we neglect the time and place for this rebuke and be like Christ and claim to be following?

Some people dont understand real love... or righteousness... or standing

What about paul... he was like Christ, and what did he say?

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.