Wof ??

[DianeL]

The use of the cry of Jesus "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" to teach that Jesus died spiritually and suffered a literal seperation in spirit from God the Father is an example of bad teaching resulting from undisciplined use of scriptures.

Whenever we read the scriptures, we must understand what we read, in light of the whole, and individual parts can not be used to bend whole over arching truths out of shape.

In other words, when the whole bible clearly teaches one idea, it is folly to take one verse and interpet in such a way as to explicitly contradict the teaching of the whole bible.

For example, The whole bible from beginning to end teaches the oneness, the complete unity of God as one being. We know that this one being has three persons also from scripture, and that all three persons are equal and all share the same natural characteristics. All are omnipresent, all are omniscient, all are eternal, all are omnipotent etc.

to then take one verse and teach that it is a complete contradiction to this, that the Son was seperated from the Father and experienced spiritual death, flies in the face of scripture and reason.
This is all the more true because it is based not on explicit statements in scripture, but rather on logic and inferences from scripture.

The scripture never says "Jesus died spiritually" rather this is infered from the statement that he paid the price of our sins.
The scripture never says "The Son was seperated from the Father" this is infered from the fact that Jesus cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

So, based on inferences and their own reasoning, they directly contradict the teaching of the entire people based on a few passages which could all easily be understood in ways that do not contradict the rest of scripture.

Looking at the cry from Jesus on the cross. The first thing of note, and probably the most important thing, is that Jesus is here quoting the opening line of the 22nd psalm.

This psalm is prophetic of Jesus on the cross. What we see here is a man in deep anguish crying out for relief, even while he realizes that God is still with him. The cry "why have you forsaken me" has not to do with the fact that he has been cut off from God, but rather with the fact that God has not delivered him from his suffering, but rather has allowed him to endure in his suffering.

This can be seen clearly in the opening of the psalm.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?"

It becomes clear in the psalm that the person speaking has NOT been abandon by God, but rather is expressing his deep agony and asking why God has not delivered him from his agony, and at the same time answering his own question.

The speaker in Psalm 22 goes through a litany of evils and sufferings that have come upon him, but at no point does he say, or hint that he believes God has abandoned him.

witness these sections...

9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.

and

19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!

From that point the rest of the psalm is great praise to God for his provision and deliverance.

So often when Jesus went through his life he said and did things specifically to fulfill prophecy.
this also was a fulfilled prophecy. The 22nd psalm is amazing when you compare it to the crucifixion! It really makes one wonder how any Jew can possibly not believe in Jesus. But thats beside the point.

The point is This psalm was written fortelling the immense anguish that Jesus would suffer, and how he would feel in the midst of that anguish, He understood why he was there, he knew why he had to do all of this. He knew all that it would entail.

Jesus never had to ask "why?" in the same way we do, because he didn't know?
What he is doing here is crying out as an expression of anguish and torment.

Just like in the garden the night before, when he said to the Father "if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, but never the less not my will, but yours be done."

Jesus knew it was not possible, he knew he would have to drink the cup. People miss the point of these things because they forget Jesus' humanity. Its not that he thought the cup really could pass..

Most of us, I think have been in times and places, where we simply could not restrain ourselves from crying out... even though we knew already the answer.
Even when you know the answer and you are fully resolved to accept it, it is just the over whelming of emotion and anguish that you have to give it voice and let it be expressed.

going even a step further.

We all know that God is with us always. As Christians God is within us always. We are his temple. But there are times when you can feel his presense and times when you can not.
This doesn't mean that God has left you, it means that whatever you are experiencing at that moment has over-whelmed you and eclipsed your ability to sense that God is with you.

I know that you would all recognize and agree with this when it comes to us, but for some reason you demand that this can't be the case with Jesus, God must really have left him.

Yet, that is not possible. God can not leave God, God can not abandon God, God can not cease to be God.

This is a very good post, I was wondering when someone was going to speak to Psalm 22

I'm too new here and was a little intimidated to post it myself (smile).

I wouldn't want to cause anyone to stumble, we are all learning, every day, the goodness of God.

Be Blessed!
Di

 

[barklikeadog]

Spiritual death is not the cessation of existence, but as described a number of times - spiritual death means separation from God -

The clearer way of asking it - was Jesus spiritually separated from the Father?

Jesus' cry on the cross expressed that separation.

Paul wrote to the church at Colossi

Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.


How can Jesus be the first born of thew dead if He did not die.



Read the first chapter of Colossians


Col 1:9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.


Paul is not describing a physical event - but a spiritual one.

His flesh died just like ours will die. Christ was never seperated from God. He cryed out because he was Suffering. Have you never suffered Balence and thought to yourself wow where are you God my suffering is so great. When i had my heart attack the suffering was great as was the pain and i myself at time thought to myself the exact words Christ spoke but after i survived it and pulled through i knew God was with me and God knew how much i could bear. Christ when in the garden before the cross had much the same type of thoughts knowing how much suffering he would have to endure.

 

[Always in His Presence]

His flesh died just like ours will die. Christ was never seperated from God. He cryed out because he was Suffering. Have you never suffered Balence and thought to yourself wow where are you God my suffering is so great. When i had my heart attack the suffering was great as was the pain and i myself at time thought to myself the exact words Christ spoke but after i survived it and pulled through i knew God was with me and God knew how much i could bear. Christ when in the garden before the cross had much the same type of thoughts knowing how much suffering he would have to endure.

Well, that is here we differ - I guess when we both get to heaven, we can ask Jesus who was right.

 

[JimB]

I thought the lamb sacrificed as a trespass offering for the atonement of sin was to be “without blemish” (1 Peter 1.18-19; Lev. 5).

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[psalms 91]

I thought the lamb sacrificed as a trespass offering for the atonement of sin was to be “without blemish” (1 Peter 1.18-19; Lev. 5).

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

And your point is? He was man yet without sin, he claimed our place of Adam before the fall and lived a sinless life, now how could He do that as God and still show that man is capable of that? How could He rightfully restore us as God and not as man. He was the perfect sacrifice, He was also the one who restored us to the place that God originally gave us. What we walk in or not is our choice as Christ has domne everything for us and now sits at the right hand of God, it is now up to us to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and do His work on earth.

 

[JimB]

*****

Please re-read our statements of belief.

*****

You have a statement of belief? Where exactly do I find it?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[Always in His Presence]

You have a statement of belief? Where exactly do I find it?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.
~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

The very same place it has been the last 4,976 times you have asked, then refused to accept them.

Just because you keep repeating something over and over again, doesn't make it any truer.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Perhaps you can explain the scripture that states Christ laid aside His divinity and took on the form of a man, a slave. We do not deny the trinity or that they are three in one and one in three, but by you saying He did not take on the form of a man and lay aside His divinity then you deny us the very foundation of salvation.

"Kenosis" does not mean Jesus stopped being Divine. Philip. 2:6 (NLT) "Though he was God, ..." Jesus never stopped existing as God. He never stopped being God when He became human. That is the Hypostatic union. He was 100% God and 100% human.

 

[probinson]

Renne can God die?? Of couarse not.

So, you're saying that you don't believe Jesus died?

See how easy it is to make alarmist statements and misrepresent someone?

the Trinity says God Christ Holy Spirit are one and the same. 3=1

Really? The "Trinity" says that?

Did you know the word "Trinity" is not found in scripture anywhere?

Christs flesh died because of the curse on man for disobedence and in doing so took on the sins of man.
Christs Spirit could not die has never died and has always been in existance because Christ God and the Holy Spirit are all one and the same.

Again by saying Christs Spirit died you and the others are denying that Christ and God are one and the same and in doing so are denying the Trinity. Please renne stop and think !!

Rod, no matter how many times you say we're denying the Trinity, you're only fooling yourself. I know what I believe concerning the Trinity, and the fact that you continue to INSIST that what I say I believe is what I actually believe is further proof that you are not interested in what I actually believe, but only in what you THINK I believe.

You may get by with the healing and properity things being or not being in error but what you are saying here is SERIOUS and not to be played with.

Good grief. You act like you've stumbled onto something that we all have to stop and reconsider because you don't agree with or like our interpretation of it.

Might I just say, lighten up. It's not "serious" at all. As soon as you can tell me that you understand every intricate detail that occurred from the time Jesus died on the cross to the moment he was resurrected, this is an academic conversation designed only to divide.

We believe that Jesus is ALIVE. He died on the cross, rose again and is seated at the right hand of the Father. THAT is foundational to our faith in Him.

 

[probinson]

You have a statement of belief? Where exactly do I find it?

Seriously? I mean, have you been like, living in a hole the last few days? There are at least 2 entire threads (and this is one of them) running because of that statement of belief.

It's hard to take you sincerely, when you keep asking the same questions, even though they've been answered a hundred trillion times or more.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Well, that is here we differ - I guess when we both get to heaven, we can ask Jesus who was right.

This is not one of those questionable areas that God has not given to us the truth to know. The Bible never says Jesus died spiritually and to say so contradicts His holy, unblemished, nature as the Bible teaches. You can't make Jesus sinful without contradicting the Scripures.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

No one is disputing that... we know Jesus paid with his blood, but he also died spiritually...

Man was fallen, spirit, soul and body, Jesus died to redeem the whole man, spirit, soul and body...

The only knowledge we have from the Bible is that Jesus' physical death paid for our sins (as I have shown). Your knowledge that Jesus died spiritually does not come from the Bible but originates from a fictional philosophy that only exists in your imagination. There are no Scriptures that say Jesus paid for our sins by dying spiritually.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Seems like some basic facts and theology are being left out. Was Jesus a man or God when He walked the earth? Was it a man or a God that hung on the cross to resdeem us, body, soul, and spirit? If it was a God then He did nothing because satan could cry foul. He was as human as you and me and did not take back His Godhood till after He ascended to the Father and delivered the sacrifice.

This says God is the one who died on the cross: Acts 20:28 (NLT)
"And now beware! Be sure that you feed and shepherd God's flock—his church, purchased with his blood—over whom the Holy Spirit has appointed you as elders.

 

[JimB]

The very same place it has been the last 4,976 times you have asked, then refused to accept them.

Just because you keep repeating something over and over again, doesn't make it any truer.

Would it be asking too much for you to post them again? I am very dense, as you know, and must have missed the previous 4,976 posts.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[barklikeadog]

Perhaps you can explain the scripture that states Christ laid aside His divinity and took on the form of a man, a slave. We do not deny the trinity or that they are three in one and one in three, but by you saying He did not take on the form of a man and lay aside His divinity then you deny us the very foundation of salvation.

YOU are saying Christ had the spirit of a man and the flesh of a man and that both died.

I am saying and the Whole of Gods Word says Christ is Gods Son made flesh. Christs Spirit is and always has been a part of the Godhead the Trinity without beginning nor end.

YOU are saying that Christ was just a man both spirit and flesh who had to die both spiritually and flesh to become Gods Son and a part of the Trinity-Godhead

I am saying Christ is Gods Son who came in the flesh who spiritually always has been and always will be, that became flesh so as to remove the curse of flesh-sin upon man by sacrificing that flesh.

 

[barklikeadog]

The only knowledge we have from the Bible is that Jesus' physical death paid for our sins (as I have shown). Your knowledge that Jesus died spiritually does not come from the Bible but originates from a fictional philosophy that only exists in your imagination. There are no Scriptures that say Jesus paid for our sins by dying spiritually.

 

[barklikeadog]

Would it be asking too much for you to post them again? I am very dense, as you know, and must have missed the previous 4,976 posts.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

http://christianforums.com/t6915372-fsgs-forum-specific-guidelines-for-word-of-faith-foru.

 

[JimB]

http://christianforums.com/t69153

Are you sure? That does not come us as a WOF statement of faith on my computer.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.​

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[probinson]

Are you sure? That does not come us as a WOF statement of faith on my computer.

No, but it might come in handy if you ever need to make a bootable CD.

 

[barklikeadog]

Are you sure? That does not come us as a WOF statement of faith on my computer.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong.

~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

No that was wrong its posted in the WOF Beliefs thread post # 42 when you get it could you pass it on to me.