WoF and the Focus on Miracles

[Faith Shield]

I understand that the focus on miracles in Word of Faith and the charismatic church help to remove any limits we might impose of God. But I think it also feeds the imagination of insecure people in an unhealthy way; this leads to unrealistic expectations. Kenneth Hagin’s books give us a snapshot of decades of incredible ministry. Much of that ministry probably would have been rather uneventful. But Hagin’s books, with their focus on miracles, give us the impression that miracles were an everyday occurrence. I think miracles, by definition, are rare.

With all the focus on revival and the like – we think that God wants miracles to be an everyday occurrence. I disagree – I think God’s more interested in everyday life. I think insecure people are enticed by miracles, as they see them as a way of controlling their lives. If you don’t like a certain, challenging situation in your life – don’t worry, manifest a miracle so you can change it into something else, or avoid it entirely.

I believe God wants us to use His power in our lives – but this is love, more than anything else. Instead of avoiding those awkward unbelievers that we don’t like – God wants us to face them and interact with them in love. Instead of avoiding that difficult situation, God wants us to face it and go through it, with patience; knowing that God is with us and is empowering us to go through it. I think it takes more faith to know that God is with you during the difficult times, than to avoid those challenges altogether.

 

[iluvtheSims]

His will is for us to seek out His miraculous miracles, if it was not His will He'd be an evil God, and we all know He is not an evil God.

 

[Faith Shield]

His will is for us to seek out His miraculous miracles, if it was not His will He'd be an evil God, and we all know He is not an evil God.

I'm not discounting the miraculous - it's in the Word, after all. If I truly needed a miracle, such as healing, I'd seek that. I'm just talking about the balance of miracles in Christian anecdotes and testimonies. I just think it can lead some to obsess over miracles and develop unrealistic expectations. I think we need Christian anecdotes about more normal, everyday things - something we could more readily relate to - but I suppose that wouldn't be as exciting, would it?

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

His will is for us to seek out His miraculous miracles, if it was not His will He'd be an evil God, and we all know He is not an evil God.

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I wanted to make a comment here. I'll get back and comment on Faith Shield's posts later tonight.

But I don't quite agree with the first phrase, iluvtheSims. I do agree that God is not evil, and He does not use evil or sickness or disease and put it on us, His kids, to teach us stuff.

But:
"His will..." remember that.
"His will is for us to seek out His..." very good.
"His will is for us to seek out His miraculous miracles." Hmm.

What is a miracle? When would you need a miracle?

If we knew what "His will..." was then we'd have a good start.

If we then would "see out His...His will [is] for us..." Awesome. Seek out His will in our lives.

And then live it. If we lived within His will for our lives then like Psalm 91 we would be under His wing, protected. Like Jeremiah 29:11 we would have hope and a future and be within His plans to prosper. Peace, love, health, wealth, ...

So if we had all that by living completely in His will....what miraculous would we need?



On the other hand, Faith Shield, since we do not live completely in His will -- we do sin and fall short of the Glory of God -- and He KNOWS this before we ever mess things up, don't you think that a loving God would want to help His kids when they figure it out and get back on the blessed path He has for them? Don't you think His miracles would flow just a little more than rare?

And since we are His kids, and IF we get ourselves on His path for our lives, don't you think that He would desire that we go into the highways and byways and, well...

Mark 16:14-18
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”​

Or Luke 10, or.... well, you get the picture (even if you question these verses in Mark because of historical inclusions/exclusions).

John 14:12-14
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.​

Greater works. Could be quite miraculous, indeed.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Mark 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

As I read the opening statement, this verse rose up within my spirit/heart. I see ABM already had the same inclination to share.

I must agree with the Word. Signs are very much a part of the believer's life and ministry.

 

[CGL1023]

I understand that the focus on miracles in Word of Faith and the charismatic church help to remove any limits we might impose of God. But I think it also feeds the imagination of insecure people in an unhealthy way; this leads to unrealistic expectations. Kenneth Hagin’s books give us a snapshot of decades of incredible ministry. Much of that ministry probably would have been rather uneventful. But Hagin’s books, with their focus on miracles, give us the impression that miracles were an everyday occurrence. I think miracles, by definition, are rare.

With all the focus on revival and the like – we think that God wants miracles to be an everyday occurrence. I disagree – I think God’s more interested in everyday life. I think insecure people are enticed by miracles, as they see them as a way of controlling their lives. If you don’t like a certain, challenging situation in your life – don’t worry, manifest a miracle so you can change it into something else, or avoid it entirely.

I believe God wants us to use His power in our lives – but this is love, more than anything else. Instead of avoiding those awkward unbelievers that we don’t like – God wants us to face them and interact with them in love. Instead of avoiding that difficult situation, God wants us to face it and go through it, with patience; knowing that God is with us and is empowering us to go through it. I think it takes more faith to know that God is with you during the difficult times, than to avoid those challenges altogether.

What I think I hear you stating are "low expectations". Everything the believer accomplishes thru God, is accomplished by faith in God (Heb 11:6, Mark 11:23-24, Rom. 4:17 and more). A second ingredient is relationship with God -- that is knowing how big your God is. (the God who called the cosmos into existence) Your words make me think you have a small God, i.e., your perception of God is small. With a big enough perception of God's ability, as revealed in the Word, you can read 1 Pet 2:24 and know at that you are healed by stripes of Jesus every single time. Should that fail to be true, even one time, the universe would implode (figuratively speaking), and we would all be no more, the Word would be no more and God would be no more.

 

[hhodgson]

I understand that the focus on miracles in Word of Faith and the charismatic church help to remove any limits we might impose of God. But I think it also feeds the imagination of insecure people in an unhealthy way; this leads to unrealistic expectations.

Perhaps they got a little lackadaisical and forgot their "first" MIRACLE when they accepted Christ as their Saviour and become born-again. God's miracle of His gift of LOVE (Jesus) to us is only the beginning of a miraculous life which should begin as soon as we wake up each day focusing on what He has done for us.

Yes... miracles are rare today, (the greater works) "IF" you just look at one's individual daily walk with God... but these (greater works miracles) are happening numerous times everyday all over the world. We just don't hear about them in the media. Hagin is correct... however, I don't believe that he teaches to focus on the miraculous... but to focus on Christ... then, the miraculous will manifest not only
to us... but also THROUGH us to minister to others.

I believe God wants us to use His power in our lives – but this is love, more than anything else. Instead of avoiding those awkward unbelievers that we don’t like. God wants us to face them and interact with them in love. Instead of avoiding that difficult situation, God wants us to face it and go through it, with patience; knowing
that God is with us and is empowering us to go through it. I think it takes more faith to know that God is with you during the difficult times, than to avoid those challenges altogether.

Absolutely... and I will add to use His "miraculous" power of THE BLESSING and His LOVE in our lives to "show the world" (Deut 28:10).

Walk in THE BLESSING,

Harry...

​

 

[Faith Shield]

"His will is for us to seek out His miraculous miracles." Hmm.

What is a miracle? When would you need a miracle?

If we knew what "His will..." was then we'd have a good start.

If we then would "see out His...His will [is] for us..." Awesome. Seek out His will in our lives.

And then live it. If we lived within His will for our lives then like Psalm 91 we would be under His wing, protected. Like Jeremiah 29:11 we would have hope and a future and be within His plans to prosper. Peace, love, health, wealth, ...

So if we had all that by living completely in His will....what miraculous would we need?

On the other hand, Faith Shield, since we do not live completely in His will -- we do sin and fall short of the Glory of God -- and He KNOWS this before we ever mess things up, don't you think that a loving God would want to help His kids when they figure it out and get back on the blessed path He has for them? Don't you think His miracles would flow just a little more than rare?

John 14:12-14
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask[c] anything in My name, I will do it.​

Greater works. Could be quite miraculous, indeed.

So if we had all that by living completely in His will....what miraculous would we need?

This is a good point - it reminds me of some teaching by Andrew Wommack called Blessings and Miracles, which I downloaded for free from his website some years back. Andrew said that we ought to seek a blessed life, with things going well for us (just like what you mentioned in relation to Psalm 91 and Jeremiah 29:11). But when someone needs a miracle - they are likely in a really desperate situation - such as lying in a hospital bed or desperately poor (such as the poor widow in Zarephath who Elijah met in 1 Kings 17:10-24).

How do we reach and maintain this blessed life? Is it a lack of knowledge of God's will for our lives - when the Bible says we are led by the Holy Spirit? Is it because we sin - when the Bible says we are the righteousness of God in Christ and our sins have been remitted? Perhaps we need to be active in faith, as prescribed by WoF teaching? One thing is certain: if we do not walk in love - it will cause problems for us. After all, walking in love is the only commandment Jesus gave us in the new and better covenant.

We cannot refute the promise of Jesus in John 14:12-14, that we shall do greater works than Him. What would those "greater works" look like, I wonder? Can we see that anyone on this earth has done greater works than Jesus thus far?

The bottom line seems to be that there is a place for miracles today and it is Biblical. But I think there is a balance to maintain in relation to miracles. I just wonder if some people are so miracle-focused that they fail to concentrate on their everyday life to a point that it becomes damaging. Can we call-the-shots with miracles, can they be controlled - or are they just something that come and go without our say, just like revivals?

 

[Faith Shield]

Mark 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

As I read the opening statement, this verse rose up within my spirit/heart. I see ABM already had the same inclination to share.

I must agree with the Word. Signs are very much a part of the believer's life and ministry.

I'm not trying to make a point that miracles are not longer an aspect of today's Christian life. I'm simply trying to address the balance of focus in relation to miracles versus everyday life and the more down-to-earth aspects of the Bible. I'm just concerned that an imbalance of focus in relation to the miraculous could possibly lead to issues: and unhealthy obsession with miracles and distraction away from everyday things, such as relationships and righteousness.

 

[Faith Shield]

What I think I hear you stating are "low expectations". Everything the believer accomplishes thru God, is accomplished by faith in God (Heb 11:6, Mark 11:23-24, Rom. 4:17 and more). A second ingredient is relationship with God -- that is knowing how big your God is. (the God who called the cosmos into existence) Your words make me think you have a small God, i.e., your perception of God is small. With a big enough perception of God's ability, as revealed in the Word, you can read 1 Pet 2:24 and know at that you are healed by stripes of Jesus every single time. Should that fail to be true, even one time, the universe would implode (figuratively speaking), and we would all be no more, the Word would be no more and God would be no more.

It is possible, to some extent, that I'm stating "low expectations". Perhaps I'm trying to reduce the scope and scale of God, in order to better deal with disapointment?

Let's look at it another way. We go to church and read the Bible and other Christian books - to learn about God and who we are in Him through Christ. But if we follow charismatic preachers, its likely we'll be given a diet of miracles and extreme anecdotes. This serves to take the limits off God and, therefore, is good and necessary. All of a sudden, our realistic goals are no longer impressive enough. We serve a big, miracle working God who wants us to do amazing things. Jesus Himself said we'd do greater works than Him. So we try to process everything we hear and read about miracles. We create and adjust our own goals in relation to this teaching. So instead of setting goals that are realistic for us - we set goals that are unrealistic for us and perhaps rather crazy. I realise my point here is appropriate goal-setting - I should have mentioned that in my initial post.

In my own life, when I struggling with my job, I started setting unrealistic career goals. I also became focused on particular job titles and salary figures (name-it-and-claim it rears its ugly head once again). I'd like to hear anecdotes from the average Christian in front of the pulpit, rather than the preacher behind it. Something that gives some balance to my expectations so I can set suitable goals for myself. Another point is that most Christian testimonies, and reports of miracles, seem to be in relation to full-time ministry. It is somewhat difficult for someone in secular employment to relate to such testimonies and apply that knowledge to their own circumstances.

What would have been better for me would have been to apply the Word in order to deal with stress and wisdom to make good decisions. I suppose that doesn't make an interesting enough anecdote does it? Not as interesting as someone being cured of a so-called incurable disease. "By faith I dealt with stress in my job and don't make as many mistakes as I did before - praise the Lord!"

This might sound like common-sense - but when you're insecure as I was - neurotic - you can reach some odd conclusions and make some weird decisions. Preaching is like programming a computer, almost. It determines your focus and expectations. There should at least be some effort to mitigate this from happening.

Tommy Barnett, leader of Phoenix First church was turning 60 years of age when he ran across the Mojave Desert to raise the funds for the Dream Center. It took him me 19 days, running a marathon per day. This is inspirational and shows us what God can empower His people to achieve. I'm into running myself. I could get carried away with this and believe by faith that I could do the same. But this is an extreme anecdote, inspiring, yes, but still extreme. What would be more applicable for me was to hear from someone that they ran a single marathon and set my sights on the same.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

I'm not trying to make a point that miracles are not longer an aspect of today's Christian life. I'm simply trying to address the balance of focus in relation to miracles versus everyday life and the more down-to-earth aspects of the Bible. I'm just concerned that an imbalance of focus in relation to the miraculous could possibly lead to issues: and unhealthy obsession with miracles and distraction away from everyday things, such as relationships and righteousness.

Naturally, obsession with any one topic of the Word will lead to unhealthy spiritual life. Been there and done that. It's the hardest thing for the church to stay in the middle of the narrow road we are supposed to walk. We are ALWAYS ending up in one ditch or the other.

I will still maintain that more 'down to earth' aspects of the Bible include miracles, signs and wonders, as well as the less 'flashy' things like the fruit of the Spirit being evident in our lives, helping our neighbors, etc. Balance and maintaining that narrow path can e quite the juggling act at times.

 

[now faith]

Mark 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

As I read the opening statement, this verse rose up within my spirit/heart. I see ABM already had the same inclination to share.

I must agree with the Word. Signs are very much a part of the believer's life and ministry.

Amen

 

[Alive_Again]

But I think it also feeds the imagination of insecure people in an unhealthy way; this leads to unrealistic expectations.

Really! It's part of the gospel of the kingdom. When people heard the testimony of Jesus they moved in to be a part of it; to get close to it. When the Holy Spirit and fire were moving in the early church, people did the same thing. IMO, people need to upgrade their expectations.

Kenneth Hagin’s books give us a snapshot of decades of incredible ministry. Much of that ministry probably would have been rather uneventful.

Plenty of good examples from his ministry. He ministered more in healing than in miracles. The anointing Jesus gave Hagin when He appeared to him was for "healing". There's a difference. He told hime of one person who needed a miracle and Hagin ministered the healing anointing. That was not what was needed.

Hagin pastored a church where there wasn't a single member who died of anything except old age. He preached the covenant. Jesus told Hagin th everywhere He went in His ministry, He preached Isaiah 61. They heard the Word first, then He ministered.

Hagin noted the difference between working as a pastor where they had a few folks healed and filled at meetings compared to ministering as a teacher (his true calling, at least at first). Then a LOT of folks were healed and filled.

This is the most valuable part of his ministry (IMO). He learned more, got more filled and healed when he was doing what he was called to do. The emphasis for ALL believers was being filled with the Spirit. That's where the outflow is. Doing what you're called and staying filled.

I love reading about all of these people who experience incredible things and have visitations and work with angels, etc. It's supernatural. That's what God wants. He wants us to receive those testimonies and build each other up with them. The more we talk about what Godis doing, the more it gets built inside of us. He wants us to pour revelation treasure in us and then give it out again with added anointing.

To be sure, I want to experience what these other people have experienced. Sometimes I get frustrated because I'm only reading about it (chiefly). But it's seed. Every seed has a harvest day destined for it. In the sharing it becomes more real and the more real it is the more you believe it. The more you believe in the supernatural as your inheritance, the more you will experience it.

I disagree – I think God’s more interested in everyday life.

I agree with that too, but life is supposed to be an adventure.

I think insecure people are enticed by miracles, as they see them as a way of controlling their lives.

I see it as a way of (at least laboring towards) staying in the rest and not getting out of sorts during the shaking. I want he joy I read about in the midst of the inevitable trials.

If you don’t like a certain, challenging situation in your life – don’t worry, manifest a miracle so you can change it into something else, or avoid it entirely.

We want to learn to overcome. We're not going to avoid problems in this world.

I also really heard a bit about someone in Heaven mentioning that certain people on earth were "going to school" by partaking of certain teachings; hearing testimonies, etc. In other words, you're not wasting your time with unrealistic expectations by feeding on these things and bucking the trend by daring to believe them and groan inwardly to manifest.

 

[Basha21]

While I agree with your statement on love, I don't think that means we should minimize miracles. God is a big God! I think our modern world prevents many from believing miracles or even expecting them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them in abundance operating among believers.

Jesus performed 37 miracles that are recorded in the Gospels, so there were undoubtedly many more that we aren't familiar with. The Book of Acts says the apostles performed "many" signs and wonders and records some of Paul's miracles. I think we should expect the same. If miracles were supposed to be rare, there wouldn't have been so many recorded for us.

We shouldn't harness God's miracles in because of some people who are insecure. I believe we should expect more miracles in the church today than we have. What should the "everyday life" of Christians really look like? The power of God in operation!

No, we shouldn't focus exclusively on miracles, but neither should we tie God's hands. Just my opinion.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

While I agree with your statement on love, I don't think that means we should minimize miracles. God is a big God! I think our modern world prevents many from believing miracles or even expecting them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them in abundance operating among believers.

Jesus performed 37 miracles that are recorded in the Gospels, so there were undoubtedly many more that we aren't familiar with. The Book of Acts says the apostles performed "many" signs and wonders and records some of Paul's miracles. I think we should expect the same. If miracles were supposed to be rare, there wouldn't have been so many recorded for us.

We shouldn't harness God's miracles in because of some people who are insecure. I believe we should expect more miracles in the church today than we have. What should the "everyday life" of Christians really look like? The power of God in operation!

No, we shouldn't focus exclusively on miracles, but neither should we tie God's hands. Just my opinion.

Hi Basha,

My earlier response could just as easily be to your post here. Please check it out; comment if you disagree.... http://www.christianforums.com/t7848189-post66521495/#poststop

Saying that Jesus performed 37 miracles, plus the apostles later is not necessarily pertinent to the argument. He purpose of Jesus miracles was to show the Glory of God and usher in His New Covenant.

This is not to say that miracles are not needed for the same purpose today. But the believer today should be living in His blessing, not seeking a miracle after wayward living outside the blessing.

Kind of like Paul and the thorn: "God take this [miraculously] away from me!". God's response? "You don't need a miracle. I gave you all the authority you need to handle that issue."

 

[Basha21]

Yes, that was a good comment and I don't disagree at all. Yes, Jesus was showing us the glory of God, but it was also for an example for us, as you noted in your message (re: Mark 16:14-18 and other texts).

My own thoughts are that if the apostles in Acts 5:12 were performing many signs and wonders (and we have some of the miracles Paul wrought recorded), then we should be also. They did what they saw Jesus do, as should we.

But absolutely, you're right, we shouldn't be seeking and expecting miracles after wayward living outside the blessing. Just as with any other topic in the Bible, we need to always maintain a balance and stay out of those ditches on either side of the path and not quench the Holy Spirit.

Hi Basha,

My earlier response could just as easily be to your post here. Please check it out; comment if you disagree.... http://www.christianforums.com/t7848189-post66521495/#poststop

Saying that Jesus performed 37 miracles, plus the apostles later is not necessarily pertinent to the argument. He purpose of Jesus miracles was to show the Glory of God and usher in His New Covenant.

This is not to say that miracles are not needed for the same purpose today. But the believer today should be living in His blessing, not seeking a miracle after wayward living outside the blessing.

Kind of like Paul and the thorn: "God take this [miraculously] away from me!". God's response? "You don't need a miracle. I gave you all the authority you need to handle that issue."

 

[victoryword]

Why would anyone who claims to be "Word of Faith" want to give a small place to the supernatural power of God. It takes miracles to see the majority of God's promises manifested. Even the exercise of our authority requires a miracle:

Mark 9:38-39
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

 

[Basha21]

Well said! Yes, all those less flashy things are a really important part of our walk, without which the rest wouldn't mean much. Our day to day lives are "living letters" to the world as much as any miracles they might witness.

Thanks for being honest--we've all been there, too. Some of us (only speaking for myself here), more than most. It's okay, we're all imperfect children of God, learning and growing. Thanks be to Him for His love, mercy and grace in our lives.

Naturally, obsession with any one topic of the Word will lead to unhealthy spiritual life. Been there and done that. It's the hardest thing for the church to stay in the middle of the narrow road we are supposed to walk. We are ALWAYS ending up in one ditch or the other.

I will still maintain that more 'down to earth' aspects of the Bible include miracles, signs and wonders, as well as the less 'flashy' things like the fruit of the Spirit being evident in our lives, helping our neighbors, etc. Balance and maintaining that narrow path can e quite the juggling act at times.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

My own thoughts are that if the apostles in Acts 5:12 were performing many signs and wonders (and we have some of the miracles Paul wrought recorded), then we should be also. They did what they saw Jesus do, as should we.

I want to add my agreement here. Yes, from the point of miracles we have been taught to go out to the world with signs and wonders as the apostles did. We are to be offering God's miraculous touch to others, not needing it for our own walk.

 

[Truthfrees]

Why would anyone who claims to be "Word of Faith" want to give a small place to the supernatural power of God. It takes miracles to see the majority of God's promises manifested. Even the exercise of our authority requires a miracle:

Mark 9:38-39
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

I like your POV.

It's refreshing to read your posts.

I hope you plan on posting more.