Witchcraft and Games

[seebs]

Well, that's kind of another issue. Regardless of whether the incantations in a game would "work" in real life, God considers sorcery a sin.

I'm honestly not sure of that, but I think it's secondary; I don't think video games are sorcery.

Now seebs, you brought up another point. In a game - what is the difference between technology (say a "laser beam") and a "magic spell" other than the label. In effect all that is happening is your computer is displaying light patterns on a screen. Sounds logical to me.

But people also could use a similar argument to defend viewing cartoon pornography. "It's not real - it's just entertainment." (Albeit of a very different sort.)

No. Cartoon depictions of sex are still sex. But no technology, no matter what label you put on it, is any kind of magic.

The point is that the "magic" in these games is more like technology than it is like magic. Many things we take for granted today are "magic" in the eyes of people who don't understand them.

Back to the subject, it often boils down to-- "well, it depends if it affects the person playing it." But we can end up like the proverbial frog in the pot, with the gradual influx of negative influences affecting our outlook on things, but not noticing any sudden changes along the way.

Just nitpicking: That frog is proverbial, not real. Actual frogs are, surprisingly, smarter than that.

Still, I don't think this is a serious concern, simply because there doesn't seem to be any evidence that D&D "magic" makes people inclined to get involved with "real" magic.

(And yes, I'm aware of Pulling's "studies", and I also have good sources on how much of it she just plain made up.)

 

[ravenscape]

A game is a game is a game. Do kids playing cowboys and Indians hurt each other psychically with their pretend bullets and arrows? Do the hotwheels car crashes desensitize the child to freeway mayhem?

If the answers to these questions are yes then all children throughout history and earlier have harmed themselves and desensitized themselves by playing childish games about grown-up issues.

Do adults who play Gin Rummy desensitize themselves to card divination? Do the dice in a Monopoly game lead to a gambling addiction?

If the answers to these questions are yes then we might as well dress and act like puritans to avoid anything that might endanger our delicate psyches.

RPGs are more of the same. Not something new and newly wicked. Make believe and pretend and dress-up are probably as old as humanity itself.

If original sin is your bag then yes it's more of the same. Original sin isn't my bag and I see no harm in RPGs, SF novels, Fantasy, Chess, Go, and other ways to pass the time and have a little fun and escape from the humdrum.

 

[Lithium Hobo]

No...witnessing 'witchcraft' is not evil, for the best I can tell, according to any religion I've run across. Practicing is 'evil' to your religion, especially if it deals with Satan. Other than that, it's harmless dusts and fruit juices.

 

[Counselor]

I agree with Matt. It has a lot to do with the intensity of the game as well. On Ragnarok my main Character is a Priest and half the time I am helping others. If we say my character killing a poring (which looks like a jello blob) is wrong then can't we say the same for any game where shooting or other is wrong also? I do see people on the game though that are on 18 hours a day and their whole life revolves around it. That's certainly wrong. Also my guild is the Christian Alliance so people who see me know who and what I am. Even online, my light is gonna shine!!!

 

[Silent Enigma]

Ok this tread got a ways off topic. The original poster was wanting to discuss sorcery in games from a Christian perspective. I'd like to continue that.

I agree with seebs that playing a video game is not real sorcery. but

 

[Durden Singer]

If you're really an on-fire Christian who has submitted your life to God, will you actually be spending enough time playing these kind of games that it gets to your thinking enough to do any harm?

I'm guilty of playing too many games, but recently I've had this thought.

Another thing which frightens me: have I spent more time playing video games than I have studyng the Word or praying?

 

[Silent Enigma]

Alright, time for some more of my ramblings.

Now one argument I've frequently come across is that anything you do in an imaginary world is of equal sin as if you did it in the real world.

They base it on the following passage:

Matt 5:27-29
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
NKJV

If you can commit adultery "in your heart" like that then, the argument goes, all other sins can be done in a likewise manner. Shooting someone in a video game would be the same, sin-wise, as killing someone in real life. (If you take the argument at face value.)

But the error I see is that with any kind of lusting (at a person, movie, drawing), you are doing just that, lusting. You've commited it regardless of whether the object of desire was real or not.

And we are given a different definition of what murder "in the heart" would be...

Matt 5:21-22
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment
NKJV

And here is a passage that deals in a way with our subject at hand.

Job 31:26-28
26 If I have observed the sun when it shines,
Or the moon moving in brightness,
27 So that my heart has been secretly enticed,
And my mouth has kissed my hand;
28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgment,
For I would have denied God who is above.
NKJV

So even looking at the sun or moon could be a sin--- depending on your heart. Job says that he would have denied God, had he been enticed. But you can't go around never looking at the sun or moon. This, of course, would seem to back up what some people said earlier about it being just an issue of what's in your heart.

But there's one last thing I wanted to bring out for now...

Rom 12:9
Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
NKJV

I think we (Christians) can all easily agree that we should abhor evil. If any game-playing or movie-watching or whatever prevents us from abhoring evil, that would be a sign of trouble.

If any Christians, from either side of this argument, find some holes in my reasoning bring it up.

 

[seebs]

Hmm. Here's the thing. Cartoon sex is a cartoon depiction of a real thing. You could, theoretically, have a cartoon book of witchcraft, which would be a cartoon book of a real thing. But in fact, depictions of "magic" in games are not depictions of anything similar to "real magic", but are of something else entirely. They are depictions of made-up things.

There's two different kinds of "real" here, and I think the former (cartoon depictions vs. photos or whatever) doesn't make a difference, but the latter does.

 

[Counselor]

seebs - have to agree with you there. The better the technology the more real things look and the more it will possible cofuse some with games versus reality.

 

[Dust and Ashes]

seebs - have to agree with you there. The better the technology the more real things look and the more it will possible cofuse some with games versus reality.

And with the imminent production of PCs/Consoles with photo-realistic rendering, I cringe to think of some of the games that will be released in the future. Leisure Suit Larry: MCL might have a broader appeal if done a bit differently and with photo-realistic graphics.

 

[Counselor]

Yeah I fear that's what the games are coming to though.

 

[Lithium Hobo]

(See below post .. Mods please delete this one .. Thanks)

 

[Lithium Hobo]

I'll admit that games are getting too racy with Leisure Suit Larry and Playboy the Mansion, but honestly, only really really REALLY young children are influenced by that. And those kids should have better parents if they're playing those games. Besides that, we have done a pretty good job at keeping the games rated AO off the market. If you think our games are bad, go look at Japan's.

I'm tired of people trying to ban games because they don't like the content. Parent your children, not the games.

(Dangit. >.< This wasn't supposed to be a double post. It was supposed to be an edit, but something about post too short or something and it turned into a reply, sorry)

 

[Eve_Sundancer]

Besides that, we have done a pretty good job at keeping the games rated AO off the market. If you think our games are bad, go look at Japan's.

Some of those Japanese games... wow, how do they think some of those up?

...wait, I don't think that I want to know

 

[armyman_83]

Man oh man.........sad....sad....sad....

 

[Silent Enigma]

Armyman,

You mentioned a couple of time early on in this thread that Christians ought to work on making some decent games. This is, of course, a great idea.

For your own enjoyment I'd recommend downloading the free Game Maker program. Go here to check it out.

There's been maybe a couple of Christian games made with it. Simple amateur RPGs. But it's a fun program to play with.

 

[CWLite]

Is there a RTS game with Israel in it? It would be cool to play some of the battles that Joshua, David, Gideon, Saul, and Caleb fought. That would be awesome. God of Irsael vs gods of the Philistines, Egypt, ect...

 

[mycatspice]

There's no way to divide a group of Christians easier then by mentioning Harry Potter.

 

[Lithium Hobo]

Is there a RTS game with Israel in it? It would be cool to play some of the battles that Joshua, David, Gideon, Saul, and Caleb fought. That would be awesome. God of Irsael vs gods of the Philistines, Egypt, ect...

That...would be sick, and would only beget hatred.

 

[Counselor]

mycatspice - Well church politics comes in a close second then.