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Wisdom of Solomon 19:19

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Jig

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Wisdom of Solomon 19:19 (NRSV)
For land animals were transformed into water creatures,
and creatures that swim moved over to the land.

Opinions, comments, interpretations?

I can't help but think about what Darwinian evolutionists claim while reading this one verse.
 

Jig

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That chapter is clearly not describing biological evolution. Besides, the ancients didn't even know what biological evolution was, so why should we expect it to appear in their writings?

Could you tell me what the passage is talking about?
 
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juvenissun

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Wisdom of Solomon 19:19 (NRSV)
For land animals were transformed into water creatures,
and creatures that swim moved over to the land.

Opinions, comments, interpretations?

I can't help but think about what Darwinian evolutionists claim while reading this one verse.

One example of the former is dolphin or whale.
One example of the latter is hippo or croc.

Do they really know that dolphin is (or was?) a land animal?

Confusing.

--------

One interesting thought. Paleontologist thought that fish evolved into amphibian was a giant leap in evolution. But is there any example of land animal evolved "back" (or forward?) into the water? If not, why not? If I could, I rather to live in the ocean.
 
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Melethiel

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Could you tell me what the passage is talking about?
Here's the entire passage in context:

For the whole creation in its own kind was reshaped anew, in obedience to your commands, so that your servants might be protected unharmed. The cloud was seen that overshadowed the camp, and the emergence of dry land where water had stood before, and unobstructed road out of the Red Sea, and a grassy plain out of the raging billow; through which those who were protected by your hand passed over as a nation, witnesing marvelous portents. For they ranged like horses and skipped like lambs, praising you, Lord, who had delivered them. For they still remembered the things in their sojourning, how instead of the birth of animals the earth brought forth gnats, and instead of aquatic creatures the river vomited up a host of frogs. But later they saw a new production of birds also, when moved by appetite they asked for delicacies; for quails came up from the sea to their relief.

And those punishments came upon the sinners not without premonitory signs, in the violence of the thunders; for they suffered justly through their own wickedness, for they exhibited a more bitter hatred of strangers. For some would not receive men who did not know them, when they came to them, but these men made slaves of strangers who showed them kindness. And not only so, but those others shall have some consideration for the men they received with such hostility were aliens; but these men, though they had welcomed them with feasting, afflicted those who had already shared the same rights with them, with dreadful labors. And they were stricken with loss of sigt too, like those others, at the upright man's door, when, surrounded with yawning darkness, each one sought the way through his own doors.

For the elements changed in order with one another, just as on a harp the notes vary the character of the time, yet keep the pitch, as one may accurately infer from the observation of what happened; for land animals were turned into water creatures, and swimming things changed to the land; fire retained its power in water, and water forgot its quanching property. Contrariwise, flames did not wither the flesh of perishable animals that walked about among them, nor was the easily melting ice-like kind of immortal food melted.

For in everything, you, Lord, magnified and glorified your people, and you did not neglect them, but stood by them at every time and place.

------------------------------------------

It's quite a nice bit of poetry, really, showing the Hebrew tendency to parallel ideas. The paragraph breakdown and bolding is mine - I think it makes it easier to see the structure of the passage. It's obviously talking about the Exodus, and the main point of the passage is summed up in the final sentence.

Nothing to do with evolution.
 
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Mallon

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Could you tell me what the passage is talking about?
I can only echo Melethiel's interpretation. It reads like a legendary retelling of the Exodus to me, too. Trying to milk biological science from the passage is missing the point of why it was written in the first place.
 
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Melethiel

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what is 'wisdom of solomon'???
It is one of the books of the Old Testament deuterocanon - books which some consider inspired and others not, but they provide valuable information and are useful for reading. The Wisdom of Solomon, in particular, is one of my favorites - it contains many passages which can be considered prophecies of the Christ to come, similar to passages in Isaiah.
 
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Jig

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Trying to milk biological science from the passage is missing the point of why it was written in the first place.

Is this really what you think I was doing? If you would have looked at my profile you would have noticed that I do not believe that macro-evolution occured. I believe in creation. I am not a theistic evolutionist. I had stumbled upon the verse while reading in my spare time and what came to mind just happened to be Darwinian beliefs (for obvious reasons). I was not trying to say that this verse PROVES evolution, I only wanted to know what others thought about it.
 
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champuru

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Is this really what you think I was doing? If you would have looked at my profile you would have noticed that I do not believe that macro-evolution occured. I believe in creation. I am not a theistic evolutionist. I had stumbled upon the verse while reading in my spare time and what came to mind just happened to be Darwinian beliefs (for obvious reasons). I was not trying to say that this verse PROVES evolution, I only wanted to know what others thought about it.

I can only say that I agree with the others, that it seems like a retelling of exodus. Most people who are theistic evolutionists usually dont look for proof of evolution in the bible, because it's not there. It is not spiritually important, in my opinion. I believe that the bible teaches us how to have abundant life, not how life became abundant (I shamelessly stole that line ;))
 
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juvenissun

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Is this really what you think I was doing? If you would have looked at my profile you would have noticed that I do not believe that macro-evolution occured. I believe in creation. I am not a theistic evolutionist. I had stumbled upon the verse while reading in my spare time and what came to mind just happened to be Darwinian beliefs (for obvious reasons). I was not trying to say that this verse PROVES evolution, I only wanted to know what others thought about it.

People can easily see that a hippo would fit the latter half of the verse. But it would be hard to find an example of the first half. Solomon said that and it shows his wisdom, which is even higher than most of us (include biologist) today.

I am against the poet/poem interpretation. Even make a poem, one does not say stupid thing. To one who has no wisdom, what Solomon said is plain stupid, poem or not.
 
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Mallon

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Is this really what you think I was doing? If you would have looked at my profile you would have noticed that I do not believe that macro-evolution occured. I believe in creation. I am not a theistic evolutionist. I had stumbled upon the verse while reading in my spare time and what came to mind just happened to be Darwinian beliefs (for obvious reasons). I was not trying to say that this verse PROVES evolution, I only wanted to know what others thought about it.
I never accused you of trying to read evolution into the Bible (or apocrypha, in this case). I was simply making the case that evolutionary creationists do not try to gain scientific insight from the Bible the way other creationists do because we recognize that is not why the Bible was written.
 
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Assyrian

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People can easily see that a hippo would fit the latter half of the verse. But it would be hard to find an example of the first half. Solomon said that and it shows his wisdom, which is even higher than most of us (include biologist) today.
Wisdom of Solomon 19:19 (NRSV)
For land animals were transformed into water creatures,
and creatures that swim moved over to the land.
An interesting take on the Exodus, God turned nature upside down, fire was mixed with ice yet the ice, the hail, did not melt. Aquatic creatures, frogs, invaded the land, and land animals, the sheep, goats, cattle and donkeys of the Israelites, walked across the sea bed.

I am against the poet/poem interpretation. Even make a poem, one does not say stupid thing. To one who has no wisdom, what Solomon said is plain stupid, poem or not.
I think it is beautiful poetry.
 
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champuru

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People can easily see that a hippo would fit the latter half of the verse. But it would be hard to find an example of the first half. Solomon said that and it shows his wisdom, which is even higher than most of us (include biologist) today.

I am against the poet/poem interpretation. Even make a poem, one does not say stupid thing. To one who has no wisdom, what Solomon said is plain stupid, poem or not.

why do you think it's stupid? In poems people often say things that aren't literally true. If somebody wrote "Your beauty is the reason the flowers bloom" they do not really believe that to be true, it is just stating how beautiful the person is.
 
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juvenissun

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I am against the poet/poem interpretation. Even make a poem, one does not say stupid thing. To one who has no wisdom, what Solomon said is plain stupid, poem or not.

I think it is beautiful poetry.

It is funny that many times when I saw a painting which obviously intended to describe natural scene in detail (not abstractive or impressive), I couldn't help but to notice some geologic errors made in the painting. I won't care of the painting no matter how beautiful and how famous it is.

For example, This one:
SweetheartgazeboTH.jpg
 
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