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Wisdom at it's Best

timothyu

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Regarding thought, prayer and speech, and the desire of some to stifle it (especially these days)

"Why is free speech important? ... Society depends on its ability to adapt to the changes it faces, and grope collectively towards the truth." ... Jordan Peterson

 

partinobodycular

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Regarding thought, prayer and speech, and the desire of some to stifle it (especially these days)
Excellent video. But I think that one needs to differentiate stifling free speech from tempering it. Freedom comes with responsibilities, and in an age when hate is all too easy to propagate speech that's meant not simply to inform but to divide, distort, and incite may be just as much of a threat as the actions it may inevitably foment. Yes we have freedoms, but we also have responsibilities.
 
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timothyu

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Yes we have freedoms, but we also have responsibilities.
I agree and he addresses that in mentioning hedonic freedom as not why we have a right to free speech. Those responsibilities you speak of are not to the controlled narrative.
 
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SkyWriting

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"Why is free speech important? ... Society depends on its ability to adapt to the changes it faces, and grope collectively towards the truth." ... Jordan Peterson

Jordan Peterson, the founding father?
 
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gomerian

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Regarding thought, prayer and speech, and the desire of some to stifle it (especially these days)

"Why is free speech important? ... Society depends on its ability to adapt to the changes it faces, and grope collectively towards the truth." ... Jordan Peterson
Brilliant.

"I don't think there's any difference between free speech and thought, and it has to be free, because if it's not free, it's not thought. So imagine mostly you have to think about hard things because why think, otherwise, if everything's going alright, you don't have a problem. When you have a problem, you have to think. And if you have a problem, the thinking is gonna be troublesome because you're gonna think things that upset yourself and upset other people. It's part of the necessity, it's part of what will necessarily happen if you're thinking. ... But mostly we think in words, and so we use a mechanism that's sociologically constructed, the world of speech, to organize our own psyches. And we do that with speech. And basically, when you think, there's two components to it that are internal in a sense. When you think you have a problem, so you ask yourself a question, and then answers appear in the theater of your imagination, generally verbally. So that'd be like the revelatory element of thought, and that it's very much prayer-like in some fundamental sense because it's very mysterious. You know, the fact that you can pose yourself a question and then you can generate answers. It's like, well, why did you have the question if you can generate the answers? If the answers are just there, and where do the answers come from? Well, you can give a materialist account to some extraordinarily limited degree, but phenomenologically, it's still the case that you pose a question to yourself in speech and you receive an answer in speech. Now it can also be an image, but forget about that. Then the next question is, well, what do you do once you receive the answer? And the answer is, well, if you can think then you use internal speech to dissect the answer ... What people generally do instead of that is talk to other people. And that's how they organize themselves, by talking to other people."
https://www.hoover.org/research/importance-being-ethical-jordan-peterson-1

"So societies that are going to function over any reasonable amount of time have to leave their citizens alone to grapple stupidly with complexity so that out of that stupid grappling, fraught grappling that's offensive and difficult and upsetting, we can grope towards the truth collectively before taking the steps to implement those truths before they've been tested."
 
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The happy Objectivist

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Regarding thought, prayer and speech, and the desire of some to stifle it (especially these days)

"Why is free speech important? ... Society depends on its ability to adapt to the changes it faces, and grope collectively towards the truth." ... Jordan Peterson

Free speech is important because if people cannot trade in ideas, they trade in violence. If you are not free to present arguments to persuade others then the only alternative is force.
 
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Ken-1122

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Im still very free speechy. But the shine has come off a bit as we see how easily people are manipulated when you appeal to their fears and indignation.
The fact that there are those who are easily manipulated when you appeal to their fears and indignation, should never be used to justify curtailing free speech.
 
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durangodawood

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The fact that there are those who are easily manipulated when you appeal to their fears and indignation, should never be used to justify curtailing free speech.
I agree, so long as we're talking laws.

But I'm all for private entities exercising whatever discretion they see fit - as is their right.
 
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partinobodycular

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Free speech is important because if people cannot trade in ideas, they trade in violence. If you are not free to present arguments to persuade others then the only alternative is force.
I fail to see the reasoning in this statement. To me free speech is more likely to incite violence than it is to prevent it.

The fact that there are those who are easily manipulated when you appeal to their fears and indignation, should never be used to justify curtailing free speech.

So you're saying that you have the right to incite other people to violence? And everyone else has the right to do the same. With an attitude like that it's no surprise that the U.S. is such a violent place. To heck with the consequences I can do whatever I want...I'm an American.
 
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timothyu

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I fail to see the reasoning in this statement. To me free speech is more likely to incite violence than it is to prevent it.
Then the problem is not free speech but the people incapable of acting civilly, who take offense rather than possess reason.
 
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timothyu

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So you're saying that you have the right to incite other people to violence?
Both the right and left have showed a couple years ago there will always be those willing to be led by the nose. Perhaps yes the inciteful pundit media should be abolished. Perhaps the system should once again teach people to communicate rather than be divisive. Free speech is not the problem. The people are the problem. In case you haven't noticed it is the masses who are at odds, while all sides of politics seem to represent the same people who are above this foolishness and prosper as a result. They are lapping up the division among the masses as it allows them to go their own merry ways. This divisiveness was planned. The dumbing down of America was not by accident.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I fail to see the reasoning in this statement. To me free speech is more likely to incite violence than it is to prevent it.

There are two fundamental ways that men and women can deal with one another: reason or force. The fact that some people will resort to force if they want something that someone else has or hear something that offends them just goes to show how far we need to progress as a species and that we need a new philosophy. What we need to do instead of limiting speech is to put those people in jail who initiate force, not punish those who are peaceful but hold ideas that others don't agree with. That is the proper purpose of a government, to protect individual rights. Right now in America, we have a situation where people equate speech with violence and therefore violence is acceptable in response to speech that is unpopular or even flat out wrong. The people in power are paralyzed with fear because they have no ideas to counter it. They are intellectually bankrupt.

My own philosophy, Objectivism, does have those ideas. We recognize that in all cases the initiation of force is wrong, immoral, and evil because force and reason are incompatible and man's means of survival is Reason, the faculty which identifies and integrates the material of the senses. A proper government, therefore, is one that never initiates force but stands ready to retaliate against those that do. Other than that the government should be hands off, leaving people free to think, trade, argue, persuade, disagree, and generally pursue their own good by their own means so long as they don't interfere with others doing the same. In other words to remove coercive force from human relations. And there most certainly should not be a government "ministry of truth" or disinformation.

Saying that we should limit speech because it might insight some to violence is like saying we should ban cars because some people are reckless with them or drink and drive. It's like saying we should not have banks because some people rob them or we should force everyone to drive crappy cars because driving fancy ones might incite some people to steal them. No, we punish those who steal, who commit fraud, rape, assault, threaten, abuse, kidnap, or otherwise engage in the initiation of force. That's precisely what the founding fathers meant when they said "and to secure these rights (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) governments are instituted among men". This was a radical new idea.

That's my two cents, anyway.
 
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Ligurian

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Free speech is important because if people cannot trade in ideas, they trade in violence. If you are not free to present arguments to persuade others then the only alternative is force.

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

They're not doing that by force of arms, either.
 
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Ligurian

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Both the right and left have showed a couple years ago there will always be those willing to be led by the nose. Perhaps yes the inciteful pundit media should be abolished. Perhaps the system should once again teach people to communicate rather than be divisive. Free speech is not the problem. The people are the problem. In case you haven't noticed it is the masses who are at odds, while all sides of politics seem to represent the same people who are above this foolishness and prosper as a result. They are lapping up the division among the masses as it allows them to go their own merry ways. This divisiveness was planned. The dumbing down of America was not by accident.

How else could they control both sides of the dialogue and create chaos out of order, then order out of the chaos they created? I don't know why, but it seems like they need to at least pretend their hands are clean. Maybe they think God is dead?
 
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timothyu

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Maybe they think God is dead?
The WEF plans on being the new overlord and even combine flesh and digital tech to create a new being, so it seems they think God is no longer needed.
 
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Ligurian

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There are two fundamental ways that men and women can deal with one another: reason or force. The fact that some people will resort to force if they want something that someone else has or hear something that offends them just goes to show how far we need to progress as a species and that we need a new philosophy.
[...]
And there most certainly should not be a government "ministry of truth" or disinformation.

"all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

They say follow the money. But money's only the vehicle. Power is the problem.
 
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