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thereselittleflower said:adam332
I am not sure who you were directing your post to, but I will respond to it . .
Here is a very interesting entry "Communion Wine"
http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html
This is an article from the Standard Encyclopedia of the Alcohol Problem Published between 1925 and 1930 . . .
It covers your point above and others from various perspectives . .
Peace in Him!
reformedfan said:My really brilliant, retired pastor friend researched this, & Psalm 4 was of particular interest to him in his defense of grape juice communion.
Verse 7 refers to "new wine" and the harvest. He sez there wouldn't possibly have been time for the "new wine", or grape juice, to ferment into wine by the time harvest time came along. If nothing else, this is a Scriptural example of g. juice being called wine in the Bible.
To him this means grape juice is great for observing the Lord's Supper.
adam332 said:theresa's little flower,
please talk to ANY serious Jew. There was absolutely NO ALCOHOLIC beverage allowed to be in the building during passover week!!!!!! Nothing fermented PERIOD! Not a crumb or a drop! Please check the Jewish encyclopedia, or any other authorative source.
....................................................thereselittleflower said:pmarquette
Peace . ..
There is nothing wrong with this discussion . .
Booze, in excess, is bad for anyone . . a little sip of wine is not in excess . .
Self control is what is the issue when it comes to drink . . . not a sip of wine itself . .
In the cup of communion, if it is prepared the way it was in the ancient church, it is watered down wine . . .
It is not the alcoholic content of the wine, agreed . . otherwise we would have to make sure the wine was a certain proof and watered down "just so" . . The issue is whether it is wine or just juice . . not how strong the wine is . .
The cup of the Last Supper was the 3rd Cup of the feast . . drinking wine ceased between the 3rd and 4th cup because it could cause drunkeness, because people could have too much wine and be inebriated . .
in 40+ years of Catholic Communion , the wine I tasted was not " water'd down " .... and many minister's breath , except you knew what had just taken place , would have thought they just came from a tavern ( perception and reality )
This is one of the indications that tell us that the 3rd cup of this Jewish feast was alcoholic wine, not grape juice . .
Since the 3rd Cup is what Jesus said "this is my blood" then we should partake of of the contents of that 3rd cup and not substitute something else for it . . Is it in the Churches best interest for minister's to give both species to teens and young adults of a 12-14% alcoholic wine ? Or a glorified grape juice with a little " bite ?"
For Protestant communion services, it may not seem like such a big deal, as what is being done is a commemoration of the Last Supper, it is a symbol, and not really the blood of our Lord . . merely a symbolic representation of the blood of our Lord . . run a search on the word rendered " communion " ;
Koinoiea .... and see that it means more than just what is written in the sixth chapter of John , then restate this paragraph ...
But for Catholics, Orthodox, (and I am not sure if Lutherans and/or Anglicans see it as important any more), it really becomes the blood of our Lord in the consecration, so it is very important that we use what Christ used when he said, "this is my blood" . . as on the day of atonement with the scape goat , as when Moses transfered his authority to Joshua , as when the Spirit came into the upper room , some thing happens .... by faith , by the Word , by the invoking of Jesus' name ... none of which depends upon where the bread or wine came from , whether it be soft taco shell and juice or hosts and altar wine .... If God can work with Baalam's donkey , he can get around the
brand of elements used ...
So, where it is not an important issue to you, it is for some of us and discussing this is of some value . . and those discussing it should not be ridiculed or chastized like little children . .
to say a point is in excess , to point out that it does not matter , to
point to the cross , the Spirit , and our Lord & that we as Christians
do observe the Lord's Supper , though differently ... is majoring on
the minor issues ... If that be chastisement and not 2 Timothy 3.16
then , once more I have failed .... mea culpa ...
Peace in Him!
pmarquette said:....................................................
in 40+ years of Catholic Communion , the wine I tasted was not " water'd down " .... and many minister's breath , except you knew what had just taken place , would have thought they just came from a tavern ( perception and reality )
Is it in the Churches best interest for minister's to give both species to teens and young adults of a 12-14% alcoholic wine ? Or a glorified grape juice with a little " bite ?"
as on the day of atonement with the scape goat , as when Moses transfered his authority to Joshua , as when the Spirit came into the upper room , some thing happens .... by faith , by the Word , by the invoking of Jesus' name ... none of which depends upon where the bread or wine came from , whether it be soft taco shell and juice or hosts and altar wine .... If God can work with Baalam's donkey , he can get around the
brand of elements used ...
Quote: RoleTroll:adam332 said:theresa's little flower,
please talk to ANY serious Jew. There was absolutely NO ALCOHOLIC beverage allowed to be in the building during passover week!!!!!! Nothing fermented PERIOD! Not a crumb or a drop! Please check the Jewish encyclopedia, or any other authorative source.
Views of Modern Orthodox Jews
Modern Ashkenazic orthodox Jews follow the precept of the "Magen Abraham" (a commentary on the "Shulchan Aruk," which is a rabbinical authority of first importance on all ritual questions since the destruction of the Temple) directing the ritual use of old wine (Hebrew yayin yashan). In a note under section 272 of this commentary it is said that there is a difference of opinion whether consecration may be made over strong wine (Hebrew, shaker). Dr. M. Gaster, the haham, a contemporary Jewish scholar, speaking for all Sephardic Jews, denies that a Passover has been celebrated if unfermented wine has been used. On the other hand, the late Chief Rabbi, Dr. Adler, stated in 1883: "Jews from time immemorial used fermented and unfermented wine on every occasion including the Passover." However, the general consensus of orthodox rabbinical opinion is that the use of unfermented wine is contrary to the ritual, and that where fermented wine is not procurable, sanctification is to be said only over the unleavened bread, while the words for the wine are to be omitted.
There you go, right from the Standard Encyclopedia of the Alcohol Problem, published between 1925 and 1930, that was linked to above.
http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html
Note what they correctly say: if the wine is not fermented, then you did not celebrate the Passover. Fermentation is not only allowed, it is REQUIRED and VITAL. You cannot rob Jesus's blood of its power, and rob God of his glory, and still have the Jesus and God of the Bible.
thereselittleflower said:aardvark,
you are going to have to show me authoratative sources that clearly show how grapes could have been preserved free of frementation for that long . . what you posted above flies in the face of all I have learned about this subject . . . I am willing to learn something new, but not willing to accept that something like this is so without proof . .
Peace in Him!
Short suggestion -- be very cautious in accusing another Christian of error in speaking of his church's beliefs.adam332 said:We are talking about another area of scriptue aren't we? The bread for passover was to have no leaven. Don't try to take the focus off of your error by quoting from another area and applying other symbolism to the one in question.
Did not Christ use seed, to represent both good and bad fruit depending on how it's sown? He used many symbols in many ways...we are talking about the passover bread period.
But, since you brought it up do you even know what the leaven is being symbolized as in that passage you quoted? Come on...what's the relevance try and keep it in context this time.
The handful of passages that condemn the drinking of alcohol are referencing its abuse in drunkenness -- which everybody concurs is a sin, when it is not a failing on the part of an alcoholic who earlier sinned in making himself into one.adam332 said:No one indicated that every Bible translation as being incorrect, many literal translations show abstinence whereas others show moderation. I have PLEADED repeatedly; why does the majority of the Bible passages that are obviously speaking of alcoholic wine teach abstinence and just a few teach moderation? There is a contradiction so stop ignoring it and answer the question. When you have answered that then, ask yourself; why do you choose to believe that the few verses that imply moderation... while discounting the majority that teach abstinence?
Solve the problem and quit ignoring it.
Secondly, the Bible has proven that fermentation has NO PART in the passover service, period. It is not my opinion but a Biblical fact go back and read if you have missed it.
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