Wine in the Bible Grape Juice?

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

roletroll,
you said;
"Nonalcoholic wine, or grape juice, was not invented until the mid 1800s and not shown publicly until the late 1800s."

hahahahahahahaha

Your kidding right? Sorry brother but you obviously have no idea what your talking about. History shows that grape juice came long before wine...just think about what you have said. You have to make grape juice before you could ferment it and allow it to become an alcoholic beverage. This is like saying that the automobile came before the wheel. Please read your history... This subject has been in debate for as long Christ's church has been. Ancient historians spoke of grape juice 1900 yrs ago, read before you post brother. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

AP--Welch's Grape Juice was invented by Thomas Bramwell Welch, an abstemious Methodist, who cooked up the grapes in a quest to find a nonalcoholic alternative to wine. Son Charles Welch, promoting the product at the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago, said unfermented grape juice was born "out of a passion to serve God by helping his church to give its communion (as) 'the fruit of the vine' instead of the 'cup of devils."'

Welch's juicy product hit at the right time. American Protestants were just going flat out in their crusade to outlaw the manufacture and sale of all alcoholic beverages, so it seemed unseemly to use alcohol in their own worship.

Today, Welch Foods Inc., of Concord, Mass., sells $650 million a year in juices and other products. One steady segment of its market is U.S. Protestant churches, the majority of which continue to use grape juice in Communion services, continuing the purpose of Thomas Welch's innovation.

. . .

Yet Jesus Christ himself was a teetotaler, according to claims from some dry Protestants. That remarkable phenomenon is discussed in an article in Bible Review magazine by Mark Gstohl and Michael Homan, who teach theology at Xavier University in indulgent New Orleans.

"The faulty notion that Jesus drank nonalcoholic grape juice simply places the cultural baggage of the modem temperance movement on first-century Israel," they write.

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3469/22_53/87211760/p1/article.jhtml

I didn't have enough posts to give the link at that time, but now I do. "haha" is not a refutation, though it may be the best defense your beliefs can produce. I'm still waiting for a reasoned response to Jesus and the wineskins....

PastorsWifeLisa · Dec 21, 2003

The wine represents the blood of Christ. No where in the bible does it tell us that we are to substitute the real wine for a fake alternative.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

I am still waiting for a response on why in the world you think that grape juice came after wine. Or how about why Christ would would portray his body as a bread without leaven, uncorrupted(no fermentation), yet compare his blood as a fermented(corrupted) drink?

The word that is translated as wine in the Bible comes from Greek and Hebrew words that meant both unfermeted juice and fermented juice. Just because we use the word "wine" to exclusively mean the fermented kind does not mean the words they came from did. Do a little RESEARCH please.

Your english words of today are a far cry from those of 1600's in england who translated a greek and hebrew text from another culture in another time period, that was translated from aramaic and hebrew in even another time period. You are trying to force your word values across thousands of years, several languages, and multiple cultures. Please do some research before you try to jump blindly into a subject that people have already done their homework on.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

I can't believe you showed as your evidence of research an article about who invented Welch's grape juce. Welch did not invent grape juice, he invented the process of how to PRESERVE grape juice in a manner that did not spoil or ferment, period. Give me a break.

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

You have failed to give any support for your baseless beliefs. As the AP story I showed PROVES, they could not have had unfermented grape juice, which you call "wine," for anything but the briefest period of time from the vine, and believing they were drinking grape juice not only contradicts common sense and the Word of God, but the analysis and conclusions of university Bible scholars quoted in that article.

Further, when I posted the words of Jesus that prove he was talking about fermented wine, you refuse to respond.

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

adam332 said:
Your english words of today are a far cry from those of 1600's in england who translated a greek and hebrew text from another culture in another time period, that was translated from aramaic and hebrew in even another time period. You are trying to force your word values across thousands of years, several languages, and multiple cultures. Please do some research before you try to jump blindly into a subject that people have already done their homework on.

You have done no homework whatsover. You assert arbitrary and false assertions that are directly and clearly refuted by the words of the Bible, particularly the words of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, as the article I posted shows, university professor Bible scholars agree that the belief that early Christians were using grape juice is foolish and absurd.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

The words of Jesus do not refute anything I said they enforce it.

Try this for starters...

http://www.gobedo.com/wine.htm

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=683

http://www.biblebelievers.com/harmon19.html

http://truthaboutgodministries.com/wine_and_the_bible.htm

http://www.geocities.com/rhema6/alcohol2.html

http://www.themoorings.org/life/separation/drinking/drink1.html

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

They are simply scholars that want to continue to justify their sin of alcohol consumption.

Let me give you a hint....

If the Bible says a hundred times not to drink wine and that wine is bad and we know for a historical and Biblical fact that the word wine can mean either grape juice or the fermented juice, then why would you look at a few verses that might imply that drinking is ok and believe it?

One "yes", does not void a hundred "no's". You have no idea how much study I have done on this subject so don't presume. But, anyone who thinks for a minute that Welch invented grape juice obviously has little or no knowledge of the subject and such indicates that you need to catch up and read with open ears. I do not mean to read only those who believe that alcohol is ok...but read every view from every side and then weigh it with the Bible and prayer and you will have your answer. A little adultery is not ok, a little blasphemy is not ok, a little murder is not ok, a little hate is not ok....so why in the world would you think that a little wine is ok, but alot of wine is forbidden????? Think!!! Please!

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

Easton's Bible Dictionary

Heb. seor (Ex. 12:15, 19; 13:7; Lev. 2:11), the remnant of dough from the preceding baking which had fermented and become acid. (2.) Heb. hamets, properly "ferment." In Num. 6:3, "vinegar of wine" is more correctly "fermented wine." In Ex. 13:7, the proper rendering would be, "Unfermented things [Heb. matstsoth] shall be consumed during the seven days; and there shall not be seen with thee fermented things [hamets], and there shall not be seen with thee leavened mass [seor] in all thy borders." The chemical definition of ferment or yeast is "a substance in a state of putrefaction, the atoms of which are in a continual motion."

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

adam332 said:
The words of Jesus do not refute anything I said they enforce it.

Try this for starters...

http://www.gobedo.com/wine.htm

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=683

http://www.biblebelievers.com/harmon19.html

http://truthaboutgodministries.com/wine_and_the_bible.htm

http://www.geocities.com/rhema6/alcohol2.html

http://www.themoorings.org/life/separation/drinking/drink1.html

How funny. As typical, the sites that try to distort the truth about the Bible actually harm their own cause. I love the quotes from 1 *** at Gobedo:

"1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

*** 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;"

These quotes actually prove that fermented wine was allowed. If it's wrong to have "MUCH wine," then it clearly implies it's okay to have some wine. Another question - if "wine" just means "grape juice," then why does Titus say that it's wrong to have "much wine"? HMMM???? What's wrong with drinking much grape juice?

And then:

"1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine (oinos) for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

They try to twist that into "grape juice," but it's clear from the context, over and over throughout Titus and the Bible, that it's fermented. Again, grape juice wasn't pasteurized back then and fermentation would occur very, very quickly. They could not have had unfermented grape juice like we can today. Heck, grapes can ferment right on the vine.

I still want to hear a teetotaler explain why Jesus said that new wine causes an old wineskin to burst.

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

The reasoning is interesting. One or two bible verses clearly taken out of context should override every known translation of the Bible, and the clear wording and context of every verse on wine. Amazing.

The argument that one verse refers to grapes on the vine having wine within them means they are not alcoholic is false for a number of reasons. First, grapes can ferment on the vine. Second, it would be entirely appropriate for a person to refer to grapes having wine in them in symbolic context it was used, just as it would be acceptable to refer to a pregnant woman as a mother.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

That's it.... keep believing that Welch invented it and that the Bible contradicts itself...a real open mind you have...discounting anything that you haven't been taught.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

The correct translation of that is not "not given to much wine"...do a little research as I have pleaded.....

http://members.tripod.com/rjmcclur55/Leadership/id26.htm

Many, many theologians and scholars of ancient Greek agree with this conclusion for a proper translation. As well it concurs with the rest of scripture that clearly tells us to stay away from alcohol. You have failed to answer why these passages disagree with so many obvious ones that tell us to abstain completely. Solve the problem instead of accepting Biblical contradiction....it's called being a Berean.....

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

"The correct translation of that is not "not given to much wine"...do a little research as I have pleaded....."

That was taken verbatim from your own anti-wine link. You continue to contradict yourself.

Please do some research before posting next time, on this or any other topic. Your posting without understanding is undermining your own views.

RhetorTheo · Dec 21, 2003

This is ultimately an Occam's razor situation. To believe the Bible does not endorse the drinking of wine, you need a million different asterisks to verses. To believe it does endorse wine, you just admit the obvious.

adam332 · Dec 21, 2003

You obviously did not read properly what I have written....the Bible's translation is incorrect....solve the contradictions or admit you don't know the answer.

Oblio · Dec 21, 2003

You obviously did not read properly what I have written....the Bible's translation is incorrect....solve the contradictions or admit you don't know the answer.

Of course, we could look to those that do not need to translate the Bible, in fact, the ones that gave us the Bible, the Greeks. And what do the Greeks use for Communion, what have they used for 2000 years ? Wine, fermented, oinos. Period.

Oblio · Dec 21, 2003

adam said:
They are simply scholars that want to continue to justify their sin of alcohol consumption.

The real agenda now comes out. If you want to talk about the morality of supposed sin of moderate use of alcohol, start a thread in Philosophy & morality.

Wine in the Bible Grape Juice?

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