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"Willful defiance"
- Thread starter higgs2
- Start date
JulySheMustFly
Legend
JMO but I've always viewed it as they look you directly in the face, you tell them "No. do not play with the camera." They repeat to you what you told them. You put the camera in a place they should not be able to easily be tempted. You turn around to make dinner and they take pictures of the guinea pigs with the camera.
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~Mrs. A2J~
According to your faith will it be done to you
It's when a child makes a conscious decision to disobey you. For example if I tell my daughter not to do something and she goes and does it anyway when she knew full well she shouldn't, that is willful defience, and a BIG no-no in our house.
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^ yes. And usually it's within a short period of time. For example
me: "do not touch that"
child: pulls hand away.
me: turns away
child: goes to touch again
me: "I told you not to touch that, if you do you will be in trouble"
child: pulls hand away again.
child: looking into my eyes, slowly reaches hand out again.
me: raises eyebrows in warning
child: touches it again knowing full well I'm watching.
That is willfull disobediance and asking for boundaries to be enforced IMO.
me: "do not touch that"
child: pulls hand away.
me: turns away
child: goes to touch again
me: "I told you not to touch that, if you do you will be in trouble"
child: pulls hand away again.
child: looking into my eyes, slowly reaches hand out again.
me: raises eyebrows in warning
child: touches it again knowing full well I'm watching.
That is willfull disobediance and asking for boundaries to be enforced IMO.
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And it's otherwise known as SIN
Why is it so bad? Isn't it appropriate developmentally? Why is disobeying a parent worse than other things?
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sparassidae
In Christ Alone
Well I just see it as another aspect of sin, it's not like some huge, bad, unforgiveable, must be punished by spanking with a strap sort of thing. So in one sense it's not 'worse than other things'.
But in another, a child who draws on the wall after being told not to etc, and you know for sure that they understand it, needs to be treated differently to a child who picks up a pen and draws on a wall because it's handy and they have never been told otherwise.
A lot of that is age. If my 17mo draws on a wall it's curiosity/exploring (which needs to be redirected "here's a piece of paper, we draw on paper"). If my 8yo draws on the wall I know it is pure defiance (which needs punishing "go to your room for 10 minutes"). That's obviously just an eg, but I hope it helps get across what I was trying to say in my first post.
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~Mrs. A2J~
According to your faith will it be done to you
Why is willful defiance so bad? Because it's a sign of disrepect. Respect starts in the home and teaching kids to respect their parents is the start of teaching them to respect others. If your kids consciously choose to defy you then how do you know they'll listen at other times? Like when you tell them not to run out into the road, or any other dangerous thing. Defiance may be developmentally appropriate at a certain age but it's our job as parents to put those boundries in place. Allowing willful defiance is setting a precendent for allowing disrespect.
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progressivegal
Well-Known Member
Good question. It S part of normal development, i's their way of testing boundries, it's healthy. It's no because they're "bad" bu because they're curious. It's a great teaching moment, a way to establish the boundries they're testing.
Like to use July's example if they play with the camera when they're no supposed to they know that it might result in
1. Mom/Dad not developing the pictures they took
2. Mom/Dad hiding the camera so they can not play with it at all
3. Mom or dad being hesitant to leave them alone with something next time
4. a time out
or any combination or the above.
I think it's easy for parents to become personally offended by "willful defience" when it IS normal and healthy and if handled properly can result in god opportuniies for learning.
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As the verse says, "Children, obey your parents in the Lord". Obedience to parents is the starting point of our children obeying God. When children do not habitually obey their parents that sets a precedent for their future lives and how they will choose to obey God. Of course this means that we as parents have tremendous responsibility to see that this learning takes place. Equally or even more important is the verse that says "Parents, do not exasperate your children". That will inevitably cause our children to struggle and stumble, thus drive them further from the will of God for them.
Developmentally appropriate does not excuse certain behaviors. Just because it's natural does not mean that teaching and redirection through discipline do not need to take place. "Obey you parents" is really not a complicated concept. Many times it's easier said than done, granted. But God clearly has expectations for children and he wouldn't have given the commandment if it were developmentally impossible for our children to follow it.
Developmentally appropriate does not excuse certain behaviors. Just because it's natural does not mean that teaching and redirection through discipline do not need to take place. "Obey you parents" is really not a complicated concept. Many times it's easier said than done, granted. But God clearly has expectations for children and he wouldn't have given the commandment if it were developmentally impossible for our children to follow it.
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heart of peace
Well-Known Member
This is why I think it is of dire importance that parents have some knowledge of child development. There is really no other way of knowing for certain if the child is being willfully disobedient or simply immature.
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heart of peace
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I actually think that there is a proper way to help one's child channel their inner desire to challenge authority. I highly value that quality in a person, the ability to question authority that is, which starts off as willful defiance in a young person. Our job as parents is to help them channel this energy, not snuff it out and label it as putting boundaries around it.
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pmcleanj
Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner
"Willful" means deliberately and with intent, not characterized by accident or careless effect.
"Defiant" means contemptuous behaviour or attitude constituting a challenge or a denial of authority.
Hence, "willful defiance" occurs ONLY when a child deliberately intends to show contempt with the intent of challenging their parent's authority. And anyone who thinks that a toddler or preschooler has the ability to form such a deliberate intent with respect to the primary care-giver who is their epitome of strength, protection and providence, quite frankly has a very good imagination!
Failure to restrain your natural curiosity about cameras and guinea pigs because your desire to please Mama didn't outweigh your desire to be like Mama, isn't "willful defiance". That doesn't mean Mama needs to applaud or allow the behaviour, but she shouldn't imagine that the child was deliberately challenging her authority and intentionally showing contempt! Heaven knows, I yield to temptation when there are yorkshire puddings in the house despite what my bariatric specialist has to say on the subject of carbohydrates, and it's not because I intend to show him contempt! (far from it: he's a genius!)
I child who uses body language to determine whether he has correctly interpreted that tone of voice as "I really mean it" as opposed to "we're just kidding around" while focussing all his attention on that most-important caregiver to judge her reaction, is quite definately NOT showing deliberate denial of authority. Quite the contrary, he is acknowledging your authority by the importance he is placing on determining what you really mean.
These things aren't "sin". Sin is distance from God. If a parent is hurt or over-reacts to her child's attempts to learn according to the developmental schedule and instincts that God gave the child, then the child may become distanced from the parent. That isn't the same as being distanced from God. Of course, this is one of the differences between childrearing by decision theology, where we assume that minor children are inherently "unsaved"; versus sacramental theology whereby we assume that God saves our children and makes them brothers and sisters to us. In the former case, the parents' theology supports the view that children are inherently more distant from God and inherently in sin, so children's normal behaviours can be seen as rooted in the fall and inherently sinful. This could be one reason that some parents discern "willful defiance" where what is happening is age-appropriate exploration and language-development.
But I suspect the more common reason that parents see "willful defiance" where it is a vanishingly unlikely possibility, is that society puts so much pressure on parents to "make them behave" and so much blame on them if their children are not idealized little angels, that the parents buy into the myth that they really can control their children.
You can't. You can't control any other human being. You can either face that and rely on influence instead, which is a stronger motivator with greater longevity anyway. Or, you can dredge up "willful defiance" as an excuse for why it's the child's fault, and not plain nature, that the parent doesn't have that socially-mandated mesmeric powerover their offspring.
"Defiant" means contemptuous behaviour or attitude constituting a challenge or a denial of authority.
Hence, "willful defiance" occurs ONLY when a child deliberately intends to show contempt with the intent of challenging their parent's authority. And anyone who thinks that a toddler or preschooler has the ability to form such a deliberate intent with respect to the primary care-giver who is their epitome of strength, protection and providence, quite frankly has a very good imagination!
Failure to restrain your natural curiosity about cameras and guinea pigs because your desire to please Mama didn't outweigh your desire to be like Mama, isn't "willful defiance". That doesn't mean Mama needs to applaud or allow the behaviour, but she shouldn't imagine that the child was deliberately challenging her authority and intentionally showing contempt! Heaven knows, I yield to temptation when there are yorkshire puddings in the house despite what my bariatric specialist has to say on the subject of carbohydrates, and it's not because I intend to show him contempt! (far from it: he's a genius!)
I child who uses body language to determine whether he has correctly interpreted that tone of voice as "I really mean it" as opposed to "we're just kidding around" while focussing all his attention on that most-important caregiver to judge her reaction, is quite definately NOT showing deliberate denial of authority. Quite the contrary, he is acknowledging your authority by the importance he is placing on determining what you really mean.
These things aren't "sin". Sin is distance from God. If a parent is hurt or over-reacts to her child's attempts to learn according to the developmental schedule and instincts that God gave the child, then the child may become distanced from the parent. That isn't the same as being distanced from God. Of course, this is one of the differences between childrearing by decision theology, where we assume that minor children are inherently "unsaved"; versus sacramental theology whereby we assume that God saves our children and makes them brothers and sisters to us. In the former case, the parents' theology supports the view that children are inherently more distant from God and inherently in sin, so children's normal behaviours can be seen as rooted in the fall and inherently sinful. This could be one reason that some parents discern "willful defiance" where what is happening is age-appropriate exploration and language-development.
But I suspect the more common reason that parents see "willful defiance" where it is a vanishingly unlikely possibility, is that society puts so much pressure on parents to "make them behave" and so much blame on them if their children are not idealized little angels, that the parents buy into the myth that they really can control their children.
You can't. You can't control any other human being. You can either face that and rely on influence instead, which is a stronger motivator with greater longevity anyway. Or, you can dredge up "willful defiance" as an excuse for why it's the child's fault, and not plain nature, that the parent doesn't have that socially-mandated mesmeric powerover their offspring.
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