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Of course you have evidence to corroborate that statement, right?
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Of course you have evidence to corroborate that statement, right?You are saying he is maximally powerful. Such a being is insufficient to cause the universe to begin to exist, as it is logically absurd to effect nothing and cause something to exist.
I can only guess that you have been irritated when atheists have asked you for evidence of your faith-based claims in the past, so now you are giving the same treatment to atheists? ... Don't forget that bible verse about turning the other cheek. Some things you write are interesting, so you should take the high road IMO.Of course you have evidence to corroborate that statement, right?
I don't know about a false dichotomy, but it is a false presumption. By asking "we" the OP is presuming he will be there, too. As a professed non-believer, it is impossible for him to be there. Which makes the rest of his questions irrelevant.Once again starting with a false dichotomy.
Got nothing to do with that, it has to do with making empty claims as if they are fact but cannot be substantiated. I try hard to back up my assertions; I go out of my way to provide evidence and quote scripture. I think it is reasonable to expect the same in return.I can only guess that you have been irritated when atheists have asked you for evidence of your faith-based claims in the past, so now you are giving the same treatment to atheists? ... Don't forget that bible verse about turning the other cheek. Some things you write are interesting, so you should take the high road IMO.
Got nothing to do with that, it has to do with making empty claims as if they are fact but cannot be substantiated. I try hard to back up my assertions; I go out of my way to provide evidence and quote scripture. I think it is reasonable to expect the same in return.
Of course you have evidence to corroborate that statement, right?
I don't know about a false dichotomy, but it is a false presumption. By asking "we" the OP is presuming he will be there, too. As a professed non-believer, it is impossible for him to be there. Which makes the rest of his questions irrelevant.
Not relevant to whether or not regenerated and resurrected humans sin.
The state of angels is not relevant to the message of the Bible.
However the deliverance of mankind is central to your OP.
Where is it stated angels were made in the image of God?
There was only one creation, mankind made in the Image of God.
Your presumptive conclusion that God was incapable of creating angels and mankind without free will is yet another false dichotomy.
Concerning angels, the scripture is mostly silent. We can determine what happened in a general sense, but not why. As to the fate of the redeemed and unreformed humans, the bible is clear. So trying to instigate a discussion on something that is going to be speculation at best will not be beneficial.
My view/understanding is this. Adam was created good in the sense that he was without sin. But that doesn't mean he had inherent righteousness. Christ has inherent righteousness because it's His nature. So His righteousness is imputed to those who are believing. We are credited with His righteousness. In heaven, we are told we will be like Him. We will go from having His righteousness credited to us, to actually being righteous. So we will not sin in heaven because it will not be in our nature.
Mankind was originally created sinless as well, however, the temptation was for a state preferable to remaining in sinless communion with God, being your own God, this why humility and selflessness is a big theme in the teachings of Jesus and Paul.
I guess we're also assuming in this thread that the post-exile understand of Satan as a fallen angel at opposition with God is the correct one, and not the pre-exile understand of Satan as God's, for lack of a better term, District Attorney? Since we are, Satan's rebellion of God was completely different than the sin of Adam because angels are immortal, spiritual beings of a completely different purpose, role, and etc. When Satan, along with 1/3 of the angels, those chose were the only ones effected, just like damned men choose their sin over God. Another important factor, how do you know with 100% certainty there is no plan for fallen angels to be redeemed? Why would scripture even mention that as it as no relevancy to the relationship between God and man because that's an issue between God and his angels.
Yes, He is the most powerful force there is. He is also the root of logic.
He can not change His logical nature which is what you are supposing. The only nature that is sinless is God's by nature, by structure and by being. God is not a created Being and as such everything ...everything else is created. All living things, the universe itself and even the spiritual world occupants of angels, Cherubim, Seraphim and even Satan. None of these living beings besides God were created sinless because sinless creation is like a square circle. Logically impossible. There is no possible world that physical beings can be created without sin. Being sinless is being perfection and the only perfect Being is God. No physical being can be perfection. All created must be shed of its sin nature and the one and only way is through acceptance of salvation through Christ Jesus.
All created beings have to choose to be covered by salvation or forever be separated from God and the new world set up for eternity.
The angels in heaven today will never sin and the reason is they chose not to rebel against God. They accepted God.
Each one of us has to do the same thing before being covered by God in salvation. Once that is done and in death our physical nature is gone (the body) we will no longer have our sin nature and are covered by God by our choice. All living beings have to make a choice. God will not force people to worship Him because that is not true worship.
There is an ignore button....I use it myself.....In my thread, "Is God above the law or not?" you certainly went out of your way to not answer my question. You have also gone out of your way to redact a post in which Davian exposed some of your less than savory debate tactics.
I already proved it and I already asked you to stop conversing with me. You've exhausted my patience and I don't have any interest in continuing dialogue with you. Continuing to address me in threads forces me to either respond or else make it appear as though I'm willfully ignoring someone for no good reason. If you think you have really good points and you are seriously interested in a discussion with me, you can go a long way in proving that by correcting the mistakes you made on the other thread. Simply go on there and explain why I'm wrong or admit that you were, it's that easy.
In fact there is even a Bible verse apparently on this topic - the sheep and the goats.OK, I'll bite. What aspect of believing actually makes my sins forgiven? Can you explain the mechanics of that process to me please? Oh that's right, you can't. You can cite "Saved by grace through faith" but that only makes me repeat the question. Only God knows what he actually intends to do. In your theology, all you're equipped to say is that God has atoned for our sins against him. He can actually still choose to leave BigDaddy4 out of heaven purely for his own amusement and there's nothing you can do about it as you haven't earned heaven but are only given it by his whimsical suspension of justice. Conversely, he can take me into heaven even as I blaspheme for all eternity if that is what he chooses.
Where does the NT give that impression? I can't see how you could arrive at that conclusion so please give a chapter/verse reference.....He can actually still choose to leave BigDaddy4 out of heaven purely for his own amusement and there's nothing you can do about it as you haven't earned heaven but are only given it by his whimsical suspension of justice.
There is an ignore button....I use it myself.....
I am free to reply to any thread that opens (within the confines of that forums SoP). You don't have to reply. You may not like the answers I give; they are sometimes hard and biting but that is no different than what you do. Now, if you are willing to drop the snarkiness, sarcasm, etc that you employ I am more than willing to do the same and we can have a discussion. What say you?And I used that button on you long ago. I'm asking you to stop talking to me out of courtesy and I gave a good reason for it and even an easy remedy. Do you reject the notion of common courtesy?
I am free to reply to any thread that opens (within the confines of that forums SoP). You don't have to reply.
You may not like the answers I give; they are sometimes hard and biting but that is no different than what you do. Now, if you are willing to drop the snarkiness, sarcasm, etc that you employ I am more than willing to do the same and we can have a discussion. What say you?
It's relevant in the sense that I am asking about the actions that would lead to banishment from heaven.
Deliverance of mankind is already assumed in the OP and is not even a point in question. I'm asking what happens once we attain salvation. To me, salvation has always meant getting through those gates. But it is not clear that you can start the celebration once you get inside because there are known to be beings who were banished.
It's implied. Angels are always described as men, perhaps as young men. They are even sexually attractive, apparently more so than Lot's virgin daughters. Man was created in the image of God, and angels are in the image of a man.
Did the angels create themselves?
You must've skimmed the OP, which is odd considering it's quite short. Please look again. On the righthand side I clearly list the possibility that free will does not exist.
Regardless, the idea of free will or no free will is not a false dichotomy.
I've never heard of Molinism until your post. Interesting.That's too Molenistic for me. But I don't want to derail the thread.
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