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Then why was information related to deliverance, redemption and conforming alien to your OP?
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Then why was information related to deliverance, redemption and conforming alien to your OP?I know the Bible quite well. The reason I'm atheist is because I decided to read it cover to cover.
That doesn't mean He can make a square circle.
Once we have our sins paid in full we are covered by Jesus and are spiritual beings and our physical bodies that carried our sin nature are no longer with us. Angels and Satan rebelled and those who did were thrown out of heaven, those that didn't sin chose not to reject God and their decision after being made stopped there as they do not reproduce. The angels and Satan had one shot as well and rejected it and will never be allowed in heaven.
The Bible is not about good and bad angels.
They are created beings not mentioned in God's plan of deliverance.
Are you implying the fallen angels got a raw deal?
Then why was information related to deliverance, redemption and conforming alien to your OP?
So, you are including the angels in the "We" part of your question even though humans and angels are never considered equivalent? If true, you should have specified that. Here I have been operating on the assumption "We" meant only humans.....you know, part of the plan of salvation?You are not answering my question about the angels.
Goalposts have changed......Well, this thread is.
I don't care. They were exiled from heaven, so it is a relevant issue.
Yes.
The answer is no we won't because we won't want to sin/won't be capable.
The problem with that flow chart shows a fundamental, but incredibly common misunderstanding of the Christian idea of salvation, that it is simply a one time event instead of a process. Before I get into the details of that, let's start at the beginning: In the beginning God the universe, the Earth, and eventually mankind. Mankind chose to sin and separated himself from God. God then instituted the Covenant, the law, and then Christ. The sacrifice of Christ, as he was a perfect man, and God himself taking on the punishment of our sins, it was sufficient for mankind to be redeemed to God, if man chooses to accept. Once you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are "saved" and become a new creation in Christ. However, these new creations are improved over even over the unfallen man of Adam (which only had the breath of life) as the spirit of God himself, the Holy Spirit literally dwells inside of them. Now, because we are still living in this fallen world and have our fallen human nature, we are going to sin, but once Christ comes back and restores creation so that Heaven and Earth become one, sin and evil will be no more, we won't be able to sin, nor really want to sin because we will have reached our perfection within Christ.
Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.
So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?
Well, this thread is.
I don't care. They were exiled from heaven, so it is a relevant issue.
Yes.
I've made other threads about that. Please stick to the topic at hand. If you want to talk about those things, you can comment on my thread "Is God above the law or not?"
The angels were created to be sinless, and yet some of them still chose to sin. Therefore, when we enter heaven as sinless entities it is a valid question to ask whether or not we will sin.
You and everyone here seem to think that we will not sin, so I will work with that assumption going forward.
Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.
So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?
Concerning angels, the scripture is mostly silent. We can determine what happened in a general sense, but not why. As to the fate of the redeemed and unreformed humans, the bible is clear. So trying to instigate a discussion on something that is going to be speculation at best will not be beneficial.The angels were created to be sinless, and yet some of them still chose to sin. Therefore, when we enter heaven as sinless entities it is a valid question to ask whether or not we will sin.
You and everyone here seem to think that we will not sin, so I will work with that assumption going forward.
Now when I ask, "Why didn't God just make us to be sinless to begin with, since that state of existence is presumably preferable for all parties concerned over the state of existence now?" one person here (and you seem to be agreeing - correct me if I'm wrong) answered by saying that God is simply incapable of doing this.
So then the question becomes this: why will we be incapable of sin upon entering heaven while the angels will still be able to? Why do the angels get no chance at a salvation plan? Why do they have free will and an eternity to wrestle with it and yet one mistake gets them damned? Is that fair at all? Does God not care about fairness at all? Isn't fairness, or the pursuit thereof, the fundamental cornerstone of morality?
The answer is no we won't because we won't want to sin/won't be capable.
The problem with that flow chart shows a fundamental, but incredibly common misunderstanding of the Christian idea of salvation, that it is simply a one time event instead of a process. Before I get into the details of that, let's start at the beginning: In the beginning God the universe, the Earth, and eventually mankind. Mankind chose to sin and separated himself from God. God then instituted the Covenant, the law, and then Christ. The sacrifice of Christ, as he was a perfect man, and God himself taking on the punishment of our sins, it was sufficient for mankind to be redeemed to God, if man chooses to accept. Once you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are "saved" and become a new creation in Christ. However, these new creations are improved over even over the unfallen man of Adam (which only had the breath of life) as the spirit of God himself, the Holy Spirit literally dwells inside of them. Now, because we are still living in this fallen world and have our fallen human nature, we are going to sin, but once Christ comes back and restores creation so that Heaven and Earth become one, sin and evil will be no more, we won't be able to sin, nor really want to sin because we will have reached our perfection within Christ.
My view/understanding is this. Adam was created good in the sense that he was without sin. But that doesn't mean he had inherent righteousness. Christ has inherent righteousness because it's His nature. So His righteousness is imputed to those who are believing. We are credited with His righteousness. In heaven, we are told we will be like Him. We will go from having His righteousness credited to us, to actually being righteous. So we will not sin in heaven because it will not be in our nature.I like your post, @TX_Matt , but an obvious question is what is different about the state of Adam in paradise versus the state of resurrected humans in paradise? Can resurrected humans make Adam's mistake?
I'm thinking that Adam was innocent and somewhat ignorant whereas a resurrected human would have gone through a process of sin and repentance before entering paradise?
Yes, He is the most powerful force there is. He is also the root of logic. He can not change His logical nature which is what you are supposing. The only nature that is sinless is God's by nature, by structure and by being. God is not a created Being and as such everything ...everything else is created. All living things, the universe itself and even the spiritual world occupants of angels, Cherubim, Seraphim and even Satan. None of these living beings besides God were created sinless because sinless creation is like a square circle. Logically impossible. There is no possible world that physical beings can be created without sin. Being sinless is being perfection and the only perfect Being is God. No physical being can be perfection. All created must be shed of its sin nature and the one and only way is through acceptance of salvation through Christ Jesus.You are saying he is maximally powerful. Such a being is insufficient to cause the universe to begin to exist, as it is logically absurd to effect nothing and cause something to exist.
I believe if you don't mind me butting in here, is that Adam was created and had not sinned but was not sinless. He wasn't created with a sinless nature, if so he would have been perfect which was impossible but he was good because he had not sinned against God. When He rejected what God said about eating of the tree, the sin nature of man was actualized. Adam and Eve had a real choice and if they had actually chosen to obey God the world might have taken a different path. God knowing that they in any possible world would chose to do what they did, created a plan where by all living men and women would continue to have to chose but if they chose God will live eternally with Him. Each being God creates has the choice, the real choice to decide their eternal place, but God knows that in any possible world what that choice will be. This world is the best possible world for the most possible souls to reside with Him for an eternity.My view/understanding is this. Adam was created good in the sense that he was without sin. But that doesn't mean he had inherent righteousness. Christ has inherent righteousness because it's His nature. So His righteousness is imputed to those who are believing. We are credited with His righteousness. In heaven, we are told we will be like Him. We will go from having His righteousness credited to us, to actually being righteous. So we will not sin in heaven because it will not be in our nature.
That's too Molenistic for me. But I don't want to derail the thread.I believe if you don't mind me butting in here, is that Adam was created and had not sinned but was not sinless. He wasn't created with a sinless nature, if so he would have been perfect which was impossible but he was good because he had not sinned against God. When He rejected what God said about eating of the tree, the sin nature of man was actualized. Adam and Eve had a real choice and if they had actually chosen to obey God the world might have taken a different path. God knowing that they in any possible world would chose to do what they did, created a plan where by all living men and women would continue to have to chose but if they chose God will live eternally with Him. Each being God creates has the choice, the real choice to decide their eternal place, but God knows that in any possible world what that choice will be. This world is the best possible world for the most possible souls to reside with Him for an eternity.
Why? What is logically incongruent between "sinless" and "created"? It sounds more like you're saying God can't make a blue circle, because "blue" and "circular" have nothing to do with each other.None of these living beings besides God were created sinless because sinless creation is like a square circle. Logically impossible.
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