Will we sin when we get to heaven?

Moral Orel · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
They are capable of sinning at one day old

Oncedeceived said:
we haven't established that babies could go through their entire existence without ever sinning.

Then please establish for me that I am wrong. What sin is a baby capable of committing?

Oncedeceived said:
The only way to become like God is to have the indwelling of the God nature by accepting God's payment of our sin's that by our nature are inevitable because we are not perfect in ourselves.

But He can make us perfect. That's the point. It is not a logical contradiction for us to be created and for us to have a perfect nature. We all have to be created because we are not eternal. But you just said that we can "become like God". Therefore created beings can be like God, perfect in goodly nature. Now God decided that the way He wants things to work is that we have to work towards earning it, and suffer for it, and struggle for it, but that is completely unnecessary. He could have just as well decided to hand it out freely through grace and we still would have had free will, since we supposedly still have free will in Heaven.

Oncedeceived said:
But you won't give your life here and now to Christ to do so?

Just as soon as God tells me He's real, I'll believe Him. Until then I have no better reason to trust you than I do to trust L. Ron Hubbard.

Nihilist Virus · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Simply put you are claiming that God is limited by logic. I am claiming that God is not limited by logic as logic flows from God's rationality.

No.

Here's my argument:

If God is unable to violate logic then he is not omniscient.

I *proved* that and you glossed over it. You asserted on your own that God is unable to create a square circle, and I am left to assume that he cannot violate logic in any circumstance.

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
Then please establish for me that I am wrong. What sin is a baby capable of committing?

You are ignoring what I am saying. You know that they can and will sin. They are not created without the ability to sin.

But He can make us perfect. That's the point. It is not a logical contradiction for us to be created and for us to have a perfect nature. We all have to be created because we are not eternal. But you just said that we can "become like God". Therefore created beings can be like God, perfect in goodly nature. Now God decided that the way He wants things to work is that we have to work towards earning it, and suffer for it, and struggle for it, but that is completely unnecessary. He could have just as well decided to hand it out freely through grace and we still would have had free will, since we supposedly still have free will in Heaven.

1. We can't have perfect nature because we are only the image of God not gods. We become like God only after we accept His gift of salvation.
2. You are asserting that it is completely unnecessary but you have nothing to substantiate it.
3. We only have access to heaven if we accept salvation for our sins. We sin because we can not be gods.

Just as soon as God tells me He's real, I'll believe Him. Until then I have no better reason to trust you than I do to trust L. Ron Hubbard.

I wouldn't ask you to "trust me". You have access to God. All you have to do is to ask God in and ask God to identify Himself. You are judging God and that won't fly. If you really want truth you must be able to accept it.

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
No.

Here's my argument:

If God is bounded by logic then he is not omniscient.

I *proved* that and you glossed over it. You asserted on your own that God is bounded by logic because you said he cannot create a square circle.

To say that God is NOT bounded by logic but is NOT able to violate logic is incoherent.

You haven't provided any substantiation that God is bound by logic. Logic is God's rationality. IF you insist on Logic existing separate and before God then you must prove that assertion.

Nihilist Virus · Apr 27, 2016

Chriliman said:
You're confusing God the Father with Jesus Christ. God the Father sent Jesus to do the Father's will. It pleased the Father when Jesus did what the Father wanted Him to do. What Jesus did ensured all who believe in Him would have eternal life and this is pleasing to God the Father, it is His will. So yes, what Jesus did pleased God, but God still suffers in some way because He hates sin and death and it pleases Him to destroy it forever.

If you understand all of this out of the gate, I'd be impressed. It's taken me years to understand this and it only gets more interesting as I learn more and can literally feel the blinders being lifted as I seek to know God better through Jesus Christ.

Off topic with respect to what you are quoting and off topic with respect to the OP.

BigDaddy4 · Apr 27, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
Re-read the OP.

Re-read my resposes.

Nihilist Virus · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
You haven't provided any substantiation that God is bound by logic. Logic is God's rationality. IF you insist on Logic existing separate and before God then you must prove that assertion.

I don't have to show that God is bound by logic because you did it for me. You admit that God can't create a square circle.

The rest of my argument follows.

By the way, I don't think that God exists, and further, if he did he would not be bound by logic. I already stated this.

I never claimed that God exists before or after logic, I don't see how that idea is coherent.

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
I don't have to show that God is bound by logic because you did it for me. You admit that God can't create a square circle.

The rest of my argument follows.

By the way, I don't think that God exists, and further, if he did he would not be bound by logic. I already stated this.

I never claimed that God exists before or after logic, I don't see how that idea is coherent.

You are claiming He is bound by logic, for that to be the case Logic has to be a separate entity from God. God would have to be under logic for that to be the truth and you have not shown that to be the case. You have not shown that God's rationality is not the origin of logic. Logic if its origin is God's rationality doesn't bind God to it but flows from God.

Moral Orel · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
You are ignoring what I am saying. You know that they can and will sin. They are not created without the ability to sin.

I swear I'm not ignoring it. I swear I am not understanding it. I get that people are born into sin and experience it's effects. But you need mental capabilities in order to choose to do evil in order to sin. Simply existing without given the knowledge of God without having the mental capabilities to process the idea of God without the mental capabilities of being able to choose God is not sinning. It isn't just babies. People in comas have lost their ability to sin. I don't bring them up as "sinless" or "without the ability to sin" though because clearly they would have had the opportunity before.

Oncedeceived said:
We can't have perfect nature because we are only the image of God not gods. We become like God only after we accept His gift of salvation.

These statements contradict each other. The second one is the point I'm getting at. We do eventually "become like God" yes? So it is possible to have that "perfect sinless nature" correct? You can talk about all the necessary steps to achieve it all you like, the point is that we can attain that state of being. It is not impossible, or illogical.

Oncedeceived said:
You are asserting that it is completely unnecessary but you have nothing to substantiate it.

"All things are possible" with God according to the Bible. Ergo, omnipotence. Us having a perfect nature without earning it in any way is some thing. Therefore it is a thing that is possible. The Bible doesn't say "Most things are possible". You limit God by saying that He has to work His plan in some way other than whatever way He darn well pleases.

Oncedeceived said:
I wouldn't ask you to "trust me".

But I am supposed to trust that the people that wrote the Bible were inspired in what to write by God. So first put your faith in men, then you can put your faith in God. Circumstantial evidence isn't enough.

Oncedeceived said:
You have access to God. All you have to do is to ask God in and ask God to identify Himself.

Tried that a long time ago, nothing happened. God never showed up to talk to me when I believed He could.

Nihilist Virus · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
You are claiming He is bound by logic, for that to be the case Logic has to be a separate entity from God. God would have to be under logic for that to be the truth and you have not shown that to be the case. You have not shown that God's rationality is not the origin of logic. Logic if its origin is God's rationality doesn't bind God to it but flows from God.

What does it mean for logic to flow from God?

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
What does it mean for logic to flow from God?

The laws of logic would not exist without God's thoughts. The laws of logic flow from God's thoughts.

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
I swear I'm not ignoring it. I swear I am not understanding it. I get that people are born into sin and experience it's effects. But you need mental capabilities in order to choose to do evil in order to sin. Simply existing without given the knowledge of God without having the mental capabilities to process the idea of God without the mental capabilities of being able to choose God is not sinning. It isn't just babies. People in comas have lost their ability to sin. I don't bring them up as "sinless" or "without the ability to sin" though because clearly they would have had the opportunity before.

Ok. Then if you understand what we are talking about your point is clearly that you disagree with God in the way He set up free will and the ability to sin. You would rather us be infantile or robotic rather than take the chance of going to hell...do I have this correct?

These statements contradict each other. The second one is the point I'm getting at. We do eventually "become like God" yes? So it is possible to have that "perfect sinless nature" correct? You can talk about all the necessary steps to achieve it all you like, the point is that we can attain that state of being. It is not impossible, or illogical.

Right, you think that God should create us as gods. God can't create gods because God is not created. Just like a rock can not be anything but a rock, we can not be anything but created and being such we can only be in a God state of nature by the means in which God made it possible. The only alternative is impossible because we are created and not gods. We are human beings and as such do not have God nature without God providing it through His own plan to take care of all the free will choices that we make. We by our very nature being created prohibits being God or having His nature.

"All things are possible" with God according to the Bible. Ergo, omnipotence. Us having a perfect nature without earning it in any way is some thing. Therefore it is a thing that is possible. The Bible doesn't say "Most things are possible". You limit God by saying that He has to work His plan in some way other than whatever way He darn well pleases.

Everything is possible in accordance to our physical universe. Everything may be possible but it must follow God's plan to do so.

But I am supposed to trust that the people that wrote the Bible were inspired in what to write by God. So first put your faith in men, then you can put your faith in God. Circumstantial evidence isn't enough.

It wasn't through the Bible that I found God and my faith in the Bible came after the fact.

Tried that a long time ago, nothing happened. God never showed up to talk to me when I believed He could.

So HE didn't jump and so you gave up?

Moral Orel · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Everything is possible in accordance to our physical universe. Everything may be possible but it must follow God's plan to do so.

Bolded the important part. It is all God's plan however it plays out. So all this talk of "God can't do this" and "God can't do that" is wrong. He can do whatever He wants in whatever way He wants. He can make that plan whatever He wants. He can make the physical universe work any way He wants. He can make the spiritual universe work any way He wants. He can make us omnipotent, omniscient, immortal creatures if He wants.

Oncedeceived said:
So HE didn't jump and so you gave up?

You said He would "jump" if I let Him in. I did my part, He didn't do what you said He would do. Jesus said He would move a mountain if we just ask, so why not something less than that? I don't need a mountain to move. How about just the paperclip I see on my desk?

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
Bolded the important part. It is all God's plan however it plays out. So all this talk of "God can't do this" and "God can't do that" is wrong. He can do whatever He wants in whatever way He wants. He can make that plan whatever He wants. He can make the physical universe work any way He wants. He can make the spiritual universe work any way He wants. He can make us omnipotent, omniscient, immortal creatures if He wants.

You are simply wrong. Those are the nature of God and only God. You are saying He can create gods, and that is not possible. It is not due to His limits but His nature. His nature is exclusive and unique and uncreated.

You

Click to expand...

said He would "jump" if I let Him in. I did my part, He didn't do what you said He would do. Jesus said He would move a mountain if we just ask, so why not something less than that? I don't need a mountain to move. How about just the paperclip I see on my desk?

I didn't claim that there was a time limitation on when He would answer.

Moral Orel · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
Those are the nature of God and only God. You are saying He can create gods, and that is not possible. It is not due to His limits but His nature. His nature is exclusive and unique and uncreated.

Then He isn't omnipotent and His nature dictates what He can and will do as opposed to His own determination.

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
Then He isn't omnipotent and His nature dictates what He can and will do as opposed to His own determination.

It is His own determination, that is the point.

Moral Orel · Apr 27, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
It is His own determination, that is the point.

What is His own determination? He can't design things any way he pleases, you said I was simply wrong about that.

Oncedeceived · Apr 27, 2016

Nicholas Deka said:
What is His own determination? He can't design things any way he pleases, you said I was simply wrong about that.

He does, He has and this is what it is. Mankind is a created being with free will and self authority to determine where we spend eternity.

The fact that you don't agree with the way He has designed His plan really is irrelevant.

dcalling · Apr 27, 2016

Nihilist Virus said:
No.
Here's my argument:

If God is unable to violate logic then he is not omniscient.

Why do you think God is omniscient?

Moral Orel · Apr 28, 2016

Oncedeceived said:
He does, He has and this is what it is.

Really? Because when I said:

Nicholas Deka said:
He can do whatever He wants in whatever way He wants. He can make that plan whatever He wants. He can make the physical universe work any way He wants. He can make the spiritual universe work any way He wants.

You quoted it and responded with this:

Oncedeceived said:
You are simply wrong.

So which is it? Did He choose to do things this way, or was He limited by being unable to do it another way?

Will we sin when we get to heaven?

Will we sin when we get to heaven?

Yes.

No.

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