Will the real gospel please stand up!

[jackmt]

Men sin because they are separated from the will of God and serve a will of their own.

Men are born at enmity with God. We do not lose fellowship with God by our sins, we are born out of fellowship and into the slavery of sin. Christ redeems us from that slavery. But now we are slaves to righteousness. Those are our choices. And God has to choose for us, because our sinful nature blinds us our need for God. Isaiah 59:2, Rom. 6:16

 

[samcarternx]

Men are born at enmity with God. We do not lose fellowship with God by our sins, we are born out of fellowship and into the slavery of sin. Christ redeems us from that slavery. But now we are slaves to righteousness. Those are our choices. And God has to choose for us, because our sinful nature blinds us our need for God. Isaiah 59:2, Rom. 6:16

Agreed Our separated will made us rebels to the sovereignty of Gods'will, Now we can submit to His will in us through the Holy Spirit and become instruments of His will.

 

[Hismessenger]

The real gospel is the gospel of faith, not ordinances, as is preached by most of the religious world without understanding the fact that the law was never given for us to keep but to show us where we are at odds with the will of God.

hismessenger

 

[x141]

The gospel is as the commandment of the Father ... Life, it is his very person.

 

[Near]

If we have been delivered from sin why are we still sinning?

If we have been delivered from death why are we still dying?

Christ delivered us from under the curse of the law, which is the 2nd death.

Matt 1:21 He came to free us from our sins.

Meaning, if we are freed from sin, we dont sin anymore, and if we discover, lets say, that we should be keeping the Sabbath, we do that.

We arent saved from physical death, we are saved from spiritual death, as in separation from God, and in sin.

Therefore, if we are saved from sin, we are saved from spiritual death, which leads to hell.

The real gospel, "Jesus died to take you out of sin, and reconcile you to God the Father, now GO and SIN NO MORE!"

 

[Near]

Men are born at enmity with God. We do not lose fellowship with God by our sins, we are born out of fellowship and into the slavery of sin. Christ redeems us from that slavery. But now we are slaves to righteousness. Those are our choices. And God has to choose for us, because our sinful nature blinds us our need for God. Isaiah 59:2, Rom. 6:16

What sinful nature?
Apparently, John the Baptist was special right? He had the holy spirit while in the womb as a baby.
Luke 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Did John have a sinful nature? A coersive force God makes people with? For God forms us in the womb, Psalm 139. Do you mean to say, he makes us sinful?

Or rather, is it the lustful desires of the flesh, as a influence, but not a cause of sin. For the cause of sin, is man's free choice, he could have said no to temptation, but he said yes, but does not have to.

There is no sinful nature, there are carnal people, and obedient people.

To say babies are born from the womb, enemies of God, is ridiculous, Jesus said, "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 19:14

God doesnt choose for us to puppet string us to repent. He, by his divine influence, teaches us wrong from right, and tells us to do right.
The choice is up to us.

Yeshua said: "Go and sin no more"

 

[samcarternx]

What sinful nature?
Apparently, John the Baptist was special right? He had the holy spirit while in the womb as a baby.
Luke 1
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Did John have a sinful nature? A coersive force God makes people with? For God forms us in the womb, Psalm 139. Do you mean to say, he makes us sinful?

Or rather, is it the lustful desires of the flesh, as a influence, but not a cause of sin. For the cause of sin, is man's free choice, he could have said no to temptation, but he said yes, but does not have to.

There is no sinful nature, there are carnal people, and obedient people.

To say babies are born from the womb, enemies of God, is ridiculous, Jesus said, "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 19:14

God doesnt choose for us to puppet string us to repent. He, by his divine influence, teaches us wrong from right, and tells us to do right.
The choice is up to us.

Yeshua said: "Go and sin no more"

Holy children are different from unholy children. People are born with wills separated from God just like Adam's will was separated in the garden and he lost his spiritual connection with God and so went his eternal life. Our desire is to return our free-from-His-sovereign-will to Him and submit to His will that we may become His sock puppet whoot and agree with Him so we can walk with Him forever

 

[Near]

Yes, holy children are different from unholy children, agreed.
However, to say babies are born, supposedly from what I've read, I can conclude you believe, babies are born at enmity with God.

I do not believe this, since they have not yet sinned. Once they sin they are at enmity, and must repent of sin, and be reconciled through Jesus to God. As for being a sock puppet, I dont believe that. We still have free-will, and walk in obedience to God, we are the ones choosing to walk, as servants.

 

[samcarternx]

Yes, holy children are different from unholy children, agreed.
However, to say babies are born, supposedly from what I've read, I can conclude you believe, babies are born at enmity with God.

I do not believe this, since they have not yet sinned. Once they sin they are at enmity, and must repent of sin, and be reconciled through Jesus to God. As for being a sock puppet, I dont believe that. We still have free-will, and walk in obedience to God, we are the ones choosing to walk, as servants.

Stiff-necked rebels Beta free from the sovereign will of God that is the way we are born into the world of men. What we want is to be submitted to His will so He can will us and do us as though we were His body. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. We want to be in union with His will so we can do it. His will is the very best will and we want to be His instrument, a vessel carrying His will and doing it. That makes us sock puppets if He is willing and doing us. waahooo

 

[astein]

We've all heard that the gospel is the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ, but how exactly did Christ save us from under His own law that justly condemns us? The answer is the gospel.

Lol.

God is all. Accept it or reject it.

 

[Near]

I suppose, and analogies do break down at some point, perhaps I took it too literally. Seeing as sock puppets are willess objects with no soul.

 

[samcarternx]

I suppose, and analogies do break down at some point, perhaps I took it too literally. Seeing as sock puppets are willess objects with no soul.

nooooooo Beta a sock puppet is an extention of the puppeteer. One being doing the puppet. This idea means I as the sock take on the life of the Hand and do what He does and say what He says

 

[holyrokker]

Stiff-necked rebels free from the sovereign will of God that is the way we are born into the world of men.

How did you come to the conclusion that we are born stiff-necked rebels? Rebellion implies cognition and willful choices based upon an established wordview.

 

[samcarternx]

How did you come to the conclusion that we are born stiff-necked rebels? Rebellion implies cognition and willful choices based upon an established wordview.

nope it means that if my parents are rebelling from the king they are separated from his sovereignty and so their children are born outside the kings sovereignty making me a rebel too. In fact that is the condition of Americans. They are still rebels from the English crown to this day. I used "stiff-necked" because thats how God described the Israelites.

 

[holyrokker]

But God never refers to newborn babies as being stiff-necked. It's a term only used for rebellious adults.

I can't think of any occasion in the Bible where God holds babies accountable for their parents' actions. If fact, the opposite is plainly stated:

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. (Ezekiel 18:20)

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)

 

[Near]

Do you believe in Original sin then? Becuase those are a few verses I used to refute that notion

 

[holyrokker]

I haven't been able to justify the doctrine with what I read in Scripture.

 

[samcarternx]

But God never refers to newborn babies as being stiff-necked. It's a term only used for rebellious adults.

I can't think of any occasion in the Bible where God holds babies accountable for their parents' actions. If fact, the opposite is plainly stated:

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them. (Ezekiel 18:20)

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin. (Deuteronomy 24:16)

ok ya got me calling babies stiff-necked rebels is over the top since they have not resisted anyone. When I call them rebels, I am not referring to behavior but their condition of being separated from God like their parents but held accountable for their own behavior. Its like which came first chicken or egg. In this case, who came first sin or sinner. The separation from God is the important fact. They were not born in union with Him fully doing the will of God, but somewhere along the way they failed and committed their first sin and lost their previous right standing and eternal life with God.

 

[holyrokker]

The separation from God is the important fact. They were not born in union with Him fully doing the will of God, but somewhere along the way they failed and committed their first sin and lost their previous right standing and eternal life with God.

OK - I think I understand your viewpoint. I agree with this.
Jesus said "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit"

There's nothing sinful in the flesh itself. It's just that we have no connection with God. So when we are tempted, we follow our desires rathr than the Holy Spirit. BAM! Sin takes over. We become enslaved to it.

 

[samcarternx]

OK - I think I understand your viewpoint. I agree with this.
Jesus said "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit"

There's nothing sinful in the flesh itself. It's just that we have no connection with God. So when we are tempted, we follow our desires rathr than the Holy Spirit. BAM! Sin takes over. We become enslaved to it.

whoooohooo we agree we can walk together.