Wicca:Good Or Bad Final Answers

Isaiah 53 · Oct 6, 2003

spirituality said:
..YOU are NOT christian. You judge anyone and anything that disagrees with you.

Remind me, who was judging again???

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

This verse is often thrown around to imply that as Christians we are not to discern right from wrong. That is not the intention of this verse. This is how the JFB Commentary explains its meaning: To "judge" here does not exactly mean to pronounce condemnatory judgment, nor does it refer to simple judging at all, whether favorable or the reverse. The context makes it clear that the thing here condemned is that disposition to look unfavorably on the character and actions of others, which leads invariably to the pronouncing of rash, unjust, and unlovely judgments upon them. No doubt it is the judgments so pronounced which are here spoken of; but what our Lord aims at is the spirit out of which they spring. Provided we eschew this unlovely spirit, we are not only warranted to sit in judgment upon a brother's character and actions, but in the exercise of a necessary discrimination are often constrained to do so for our own guidance. It is the violation of the law of love involved in the exercise of a censorious disposition which alone is here condemned. And the argument against it--"that ye be not judged"--confirms this: "that your own character and actions be not pronounced upon with the like severity"; that is, at the great day.

As you can see this verse is in reference to judging individuals not the belief system itself. We are taught to discern good from evil.

We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. (Hebrews 5:11-13)

God's word is very clear in what is considered 'good' and what is considered 'evil'. Any religion that leads one from the truth of Christ into the false religions of self-salvation and thus away from God; is evil. The individuals practicing such religions are not necessarily evil; they are lost. It is the SYSTEM that is evil for it causes individuals to become lost.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

spirituality · Oct 6, 2003

You feel guilty and therefore assume I was talking about you... I see...

Isaiah 53 · Oct 6, 2003

spirituality said:
You feel guilty and therefore assume I was talking about you... I see...

Funny, I didnt see that in my post??

PEACE IN CHRIST!!

spirituality · Oct 6, 2003

Well you quoted my post and then defensively said

Remind me, who was judging again???

And then embarked on a long post justifying your actions...and then if this werent enough already, you pmed the EXACT SAME post to me...hmmmm sounds to me like i was right.

Havoc · Oct 6, 2003

God's word is very clear in what is considered 'good' and what is considered 'evil'.

True, the Bible is very clear even in describing those times when God does evil.

Any religion that leads one from the truth of Christ

the belief in Christ

into the false religions

the religions you believe are false

of self-salvation and thus away from God; is evil.

Most other religions do not teach that man requires salvation at all, therefore your reference to "self-salvation" doesn't apply to them.

The individuals practicing such religions are not necessarily evil; they are lost.

I'm not lost.

It is the SYSTEM that is evil for it causes individuals to become lost.

Or conversly, it could equally be that Christianity causes people to become lost by erroneously purporting that their beliefs are actually the will of the Divine.

spirituality · Oct 6, 2003

The point is that there is no way of attaining absolute truth and anypone who claims they KNOW anything of the nature of God are being arrogant and ignorant of the nature of truth.

Isaiah 53 · Oct 6, 2003

spirituality said:
The point is that there is no way of attaining absolute truth and anypone who claims they KNOW anything of the nature of God are being arrogant and ignorant of the nature of truth.

Ahhh, but we can know the nature of God, when we accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit; we learn of God's nature through His word!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

Isaiah 53 · Oct 6, 2003

Havoc said:
True, the Bible is very clear even in describing those times when God does evil. God is incapable of committing evil.

the belief in Christ Yes, belief in the truth of Christ..

the religions you believe are false Religions the Bible teaches as false.

Most other religions do not teach that man requires salvation at all, therefore your reference to "self-salvation" doesn't apply to them. If one believes they do not need salvation, then they are relying upon themselves for eternal life.

I'm not lost. We are all lost without Christ.

Or conversly, it could equally be that Christianity causes people to become lost by erroneously purporting that their beliefs are actually the will of the Divine. Although I disagree, I can see your point. What would it take to convice you that Christianity is true??

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!!

Havoc · Oct 6, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
God is incapable of committing evil.

On the contrary, your Bible not only states that he is capable but has used evil, committed evil, caused evil, and even repented of his evil. A look at only one book of the OT, Jeremiah, yeilds the following references

Jer.4:6; Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

6:19; Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

11:11, Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

17, Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

23; And there shall be no remnant of them: for I will bring evil upon the men of Anathoth, even the year of their visitation.

18:11; Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you,

19:3,And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

15; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

23:12; Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

32:23,And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:

42; For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

36:31; And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not.

42:17; So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there; they shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.

44:2,Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they are a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

27; Behold, I will watch over them for evil, and not for good: and all the men of Judah that are in the land of Egypt shall be consumed by the sword and by the famine, until there be an end of them.

45:5; And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD:

49:37; For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies, and before them that seek their life: and I will bring evil upon them,

51:64; And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary.

A couple of further references from the OT make it quite clear that God is the creator of evil, and the ultimate source of evil.

Isaiah 45:7, KJV - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Amos 3:6 - Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Isaiah 53 · Oct 6, 2003

Havoc said:
On the contrary, your Bible not only states that he is capable but has used evil, committed evil, caused evil, and even repented of his evil. A look at only one book of the OT, Jeremiah, yeilds the following references. Lets look at these verses shall we?:
Jer 4:6~When seen in the NIV version it makes more sense:
Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction."

6:19~Hear, O earth:
I am bringing disaster on this people,
the fruit of their schemes,
because they have not listened to my words
and have rejected my law.

11:11~Therefore this is what the LORD says: 'I will bring on them a disaster they cannot escape. Although they cry out to me, I will not listen to them.

11:17~The LORD Almighty, who planted you, has decreed disaster for you, because the house of Israel and the house of Judah have done evil and provoked me to anger by burning incense to Baal

11:23~Not even a remnant will be left to them, because I will bring disaster on the men of Anathoth in the year of their punishment.

18:11~Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, 'This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.'

19:3~and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD , O kings of Judah and people of Jerusalem. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Listen! I am going to bring a disaster on this place that will make the ears of everyone who hears of it tingle.

19:15~This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Listen! I am going to bring on this city and the villages around it every disaster I pronounced against them, because they were stiff-necked and would not listen to my words

23:12~Therefore their path will become slippery;
they will be banished to darkness
and there they will fall.
I will bring disaster on them
in the year they are punished,"
declares the LORD .

32:23~They came in and took possession of it, but they did not obey you or follow your law; they did not do what you commanded them to do. So you brought all this disaster upon them

32:42~This is what the LORD says: As I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will give them all the prosperity I have promised them.

36:31~I will punish him and his children and his attendants for their wickedness; I will bring on them and those living in Jerusalem and the people of Judah every disaster I pronounced against them, because they have not listened

42:17~Indeed, all who are determined to go to Egypt to settle there will die by the sword, famine and plague; not one of them will survive or escape the disaster I will bring on them.'

44:2~This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You saw the great disaster I brought on Jerusalem and on all the towns of Judah. Today they lie deserted and in ruins

44:27~For I am watching over them for harm, not for good; the Jews in Egypt will perish by sword and famine until they are all destroyed

45:5~Should you then seek great things for yourself? Seek them not. For I will bring disaster on all people, declares the LORD , but wherever you go I will let you escape with your life.

49:37~I will shatter Elam before their foes,
before those who seek their lives;
I will bring disaster upon them,
even my fierce anger,"
declares the LORD .
"I will pursue them with the sword
until I have made an end of them.

51:64~Then say, 'So will Babylon sink to rise no more because of the disaster I will bring upon her. And her people will fall.' "

Isaiah 45:7~ I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD , do all these things.

Amos 3:6~When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?

It means evil; not in the moral sense but in contrast to "peace" in the parallel clause, war, disaster. And let us not forget that God sent these disasters upon His people becaue of their willful disobedience to His decrees.

You see God supernaturally protected His nation many times, while they were in obedience, but after generations of willful disobedience; He sent disaster upon them. In Jeremiah it was the Babylonians. In Isaiah and Amos it is a warning of things to come.

A couple of further references from the OT make it quite clear that God is the creator of evil, and the ultimate source of evil. I think we sufficiently answered this question. We must remember that the KJV is not written in the same terms we use today. We must look at the literal meaning of the words either with a good Bible Commentary or another more modern version.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!!

Havoc · Oct 6, 2003

Once again, on the contrary. The Hebrew word use in those verses is "ra'" (Strong's #7451). The word may be used for things such as "calamity" or "adversity" but is generally used as "evil". In fact Strong's lists the number of times it is used as "calamity" as only once, and the number of times it is used as "adversity(ies)" as four. The number of times it is used as "evil" is about 440 times. It should be noted that Strong's lists all the references to God doing ra' that I have listed as referring to evil, and not adversity or calamity. It should also be noted that Strong's lists all the references of man doing evil being the same as God doing evil. It would appear to be that the Hebrew word being used means the same whether we do the evil, or God does it.

I'm assuming you consider Strong's to be a good reference?

spirituality · Oct 6, 2003

Isaiah 53 said:
Ahhh, but we can know the nature of God, when we accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit; we learn of God's nature through His word!!

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

ARRRGH how ennervating...you missed the ENTIRE point of my post...does ANYONE here agree with me on this?

Havoc · Oct 6, 2003

spirituality said:
ARRRGH how ennervating...you missed the ENTIRE point of my post...does ANYONE here agree with me on this?

I agree with you entirely. Unfortunatly those who choose to believe they DO have the absolute truth will not agree with you since doing so would cause them to have to examine their beliefs. Seriously examining a belief as preposterous as "I have the absolute truth" in conjunction with a complete lack of substantive evidence to support it would result in the implosion of any belief system founded on that premise.

You'll probably also find that not accepting their unsupportable claim of absolute will cause them to label you a relativist. I've been called a relativist many times even though I most certainly do believe in the concept of absolute truth. Unfortunatly to those people "relativeist" is mistakenly applied to anyone who doesn't agree with their claim of absolute truth

Rae · Oct 7, 2003

Well, let's see. Even if the word is "disaster"...that still is pretty nasty of God to bring on disasters, right? I think so.

Of course I don't believe in Christians' claims of absolute truth. I don't believe in the Bible's claims of absolute truth, either. Any such claims are at best weakly supported, or as in this thread, totally unsupported by anything resembling objective evidence.

Isaiah 53 · Oct 7, 2003

Havoc- I used the JFB commentary for the conclusions I drew. I have not checked with Strong's, nor do I have one handy. But since it is impossible for God to even look upon evil..(Habakkuk 1:3) then it is impossible for God to create evil. He can however use man to bring disaster upon othes. While I am sure you are accurate in your use of the word 'evil'. Why then would other translations replace the word with 'disaster' or 'calamity'? I am sure the scholars who translated the other versions from the original texts took the Hebrew meaning for the word into account.

Rae- Its important to remember that God gave plenty of warning and plenty opportunity for the people of Judah to repent and turn back to Him. They continued to disobey even after so many warnings. When is enough~enough. I find our society in the same situation today. Its only a matter of time before the Rapture occurs and God exacts His judgment upon the wicked.

Spirituality- I am sorry if I missed your meaning. I assumed you meant we cannot know God because we are merely human. Well this is incorrect, Christians know very well the nature of God; He told us in the Bible.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

spirituality · Oct 7, 2003

goodbye...im outta here...

Rae · Oct 8, 2003

Isaiah: No God has ever murdered babies or ordered anyone to murder anyone else. I believe this as firmly as you seem to believe that your God has murdered babies and ordered people to murder each other. I think that anyone who believes a God would order anyone to kill anyone else is blaspheming their God and will have to answer to her or him about their blasphemy.

I do not believe the Bible holds anything close to the truth about the Divine. Your repeated assertions that it does are not convincing.

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